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Jon Allen V.I.P. England 1771 Posts |
I was working this evening and one of the guests was a well known person. She has been in the news in the UK recently and is somewhat notorious. I immediately knew who she was.
I borrowed her ring to do a ring routine and there was some banter which let her know that I knew who she was, without bringing too much attention to the fact. As I got in to the routine, I realised that, due to who she was and who she is associated with, some lines would not be appropriate. I found myself having to think ahead of myself to future lines to see if I should use them. I decided to leave out one of my lines. So here's the thing: Have you ever been performing for celebrities or people in the public eye and found yourself having to curb your patter because of them?
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more. Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk |
Elwood Loyal user 287 Posts |
I've not yet been in the situation of performing to celebrities, but I do work in real world situations - restaurants, private parties for adults and kids - and every now and again you notice a situation that "isn't as it should be."
I feel that by going out of your way to avoid mentioning something it becomes far too obvious that you are trying to be polite, diplomatic, whatever, and you can easily end up being offensive by avoiding the issue, whatever it is. Obviously, you wouldn't ask to borrow a ring from someone with no arms, but at the same time, you should treat them as you would any spectator (sorry, Jon, "participant!). Besides, your patter should be of such a nature that you are comfartable with it in front of any audience. Without meaning to offend anyone here, there seems to be an attitude, particularly in America, that Magic should be non-offensive, sterile and almost Disney-esque in its "cuteness." In actual fact, almost everyone likes a bit of risque humour, be it a sly look or a dirty joke. I'm not a "blue" comedian, nor do I dumb down my performances with crudity, but I get a very strong reaction from my sponge ball routine "Tom, Dick and Fanny" that many people here would frown upon, because it has a couple of moments of double-entendre in it. However, the reactions speak for themselves, and I'm not going to drop it from my act. Getting back to the point, no, I don't curb my patter for anyone! |
Chris Boyd Regular user Mansfield, TX 155 Posts |
Quote:
On 2003-04-26 20:51, Jon Allen wrote: I would think that, if anything, celebrities would appreciate the double entendres (unless they were with their young children, of course). They are, after all, just people like you and me. It seems to me that people make too big a deal of meeting a celebrity. They have to make the best impression possible, be clean in word, deed and person, laugh at all the celebrities jokes, all the while playing it cool. It is as though they hope that the celeb will take to them and that they will become true friends. Either that, or they are a blithering idiot, making way too big a deal of the situation. I have to admit that I am not immune to this effect. I was working at Blockbuster on a busy Friday night when Ron Livingston walked up to my register (he was in town filming Office Space). I wasn't the blithering idiot though; I was the first guy. Since then, I've sorted through my problems in this area and am currently taking medication. Of course, if you are worried about using risque material with a celebrity at a restaurant setting out of the fear that, should the celebrity dislike your performance, they may complain to the manager who will then sack you with all haste for upsetting someone who has the possibility of being a draw for more customers (i.e. "Julia Roberts eats dinner here!!!"), then yeah, keep it clean.
Chris Boyd
"Jaws dropping is the sweetest sound..." |
phonic69 Special user 560 Posts |
Jon Allen - who was it?
Give us a clue! |
eddieloughran Special user 942 Posts |
This is a good reason to have all your patter carefully worked out, and not to stray to far from it. If it would offend your celebrity the odds are it would offend "common" people too. I`d treat her the same as anyone else.
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 1984 Posts |
Jon,
I imagine that this situation doesn't present itself too often. Without knowing who the person was and what lines you thought would offend, it is hard to offer advice. Generally, my thought would be that if some bit of patter would offend a specific person for a specific reason then you should just drop the questionable lines in that specific instance. It has been my observation that what you say is not as important as how you say it. I have heard people use patter lines that I could never attempt, yet they pulled it off smoothly and no one batted an eye. Part of being a performer is also being able to judge the audience. Patter should generally not be offensive. There may be a certain situation though, that a normal non-offensive line would offend, due to religious beliefs, a national tragedy or local hot button issues. In that case, patter should likely be altered or dropped all together. One can also live on the edge and attempt risque or double entendre lines if one reads that a certain audience is open to that. Of course the old cliche about playing with fire does apply in that case.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin |
aranaza New user London, England 53 Posts |
My guess is that it was Ulrika Johnnson
Am I right? |
Michaels Elite user 412 Posts |
Jon,
As long as the humor is in good taste I wouldn't think it matters who you're performing for. I've performed for Jack Klugman and Burt Reynolds and maintained the same patter as before except for the adlib. When I'm considered for hire I inform the host as to my style of humor and magic. If they find it inappropriate for they're guests I either work my changes in my patter before the show or I recommend another performer who would be better for that particuliar environment. I've always felt your tape Spectators Don't Exist was not only a video of great routines but also a mini-lesson on how to react to different audiences. I must agree with Kaliix-I would think the content is not as critical as the appropriateness of the delivery. Top of the day to you Michaels
"Our technology is ahead of our humanity"
Albert Einstein |
Jon Allen V.I.P. England 1771 Posts |
Some interesting replies, although I think we have strayed a little from my question. I think I phrased it wrongly so I will ask in another vein.
If Julia Roberts is going to divorce her husband, you probably wouldn't want to make jokes about cameramen or infidelity. If Wynona Ryder is at the table, you may not want to do a gag about theft or drugs, etc. If the President of the USA was there, maybe stay clear of 9/11 jokes, Saddam, Iraq etc. And so to my case. I don't know if the Americans have heard of Carol Caplin. She was involved with a fraudster who helped Tony Blair and his wife save money in an underhanded deal on some property. I borrowed her ring for Ringflash and, as always, I asked her if it was expensive and/or sentimaental. She laughed and said it was expensive. She then said to her friends she didn't care too much for it. I assumed it was from her partner but decided not to ask further. Later, I use a line "It's still a little hot.... but obviously we don't know how you got it." It was this line I decided to drop. Now I'm all for having a laugh with celebrities, huigh powered business people etc, but something inside me felt at that at this time, it was wrong to make a gag that was closely assoicated with this person. Okay, so maybe I wimped out! So that is my question. Not about whether you would swear or use blue material but whether you would not use a line you felt was too close to the person's private life for comfort. p.s. Someone mentioned double entendres. Reminds me of one of my favourite jokes: A girl walks into a bar and asks the barman for a Double Entendre so the barman gave her one.
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more. Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk |
Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 1984 Posts |
Quote:
So that is my question. Not about whether you would swear or use blue material but whether you would not use a line you felt was too close to the person's private life for comfort. I would still go with my first response. A performer has to be able to read his audience. Only you, at that time, in that situation, can really judge whether or not a line comes too close. If you think that person has a sense of humor, especially a self-deprecating one, then keep the line in. Or you could take the conservative, safe route and leave it out.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin |
Michaels Elite user 412 Posts |
Thanks for clarifying. To address your question -I would refrain from using any line that might willingly offend any member of the audience whether it was close to their private life or not or whether they're of celebrity status or not.
Just a short story- I was performing Invisible Deck in a walk around venue. In my routine there is a humorous line referring to an affair. Little did I know one the spectators just left her husband because he was having an affair. I'm still a couple of shades of red. You can't always know.
"Our technology is ahead of our humanity"
Albert Einstein |
Andrew E. Miller Inner circle Southern California 1428 Posts |
I have had to watch what I have said at times for cultural reasons. Meaning that the people I was performing magic for were from a foreign country. It really is important to watch what you say always.
Andrew |
Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
The late comedian Red Skelton used to say that a performer should gear his act (and what he says) as if his grandmother were sitting in the first row.
It served him -- and many, many other "name performers -- well over the years. |
truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Elwood has an excellent point in that magic in the US has become so "family" that it is almost stunting to artistic growth. Now, there is nothing wrong with family magic, but to say all magic has to appeal to a family audience is ridiculous. It's rather like mandating that all movies have to earn a G rating. Think of the great movies we would have missed had we been forced to fit inside this paradigm. Now, the danger comes in those who confuse artistic liscense with flagrant obscentity. Just becasue you offend lots of people, doesn't make you a Lenny Bruce.
In fact, I know that most of the magicians in my area are NOT hired for "society shows" because of the family image they project. Instead, those in positions of power want something mature and challenging. Red suits, loud ties, incessant laughing at one's own lines, and that deer in the head lights smile does not speak to them on any level other than someone who can be easily dismissed. Sadly, many magic conventions refuse to showcase performers who are mature and challenging; and as a result, we re-enforce the notion that (most) successful magicians are dorks and goofballs. (One convention which I attended regularly has a strict "family mandate" to all its shows.) Now, of course, we are waxing philosophical and getting away from Jon's specific circumstance. My belief is that I should believe in my art strongly enough to present it as I envision it. If the crowd is not the "right crowd" then I have failed in choosing my audience OR in communicating my artistic style to those who have hired me. (Of course, asking a one armed person to extend their hand is just wrong; but you can use the same line on the person standing next to them.) Dropping a line because you don't think it will "play" for an audience, is being attentive. The art in magic comes from reading where your audience is, and in transporting them to the point where they can appreciate that which you have to share. But there is a difference between that and being untrue to who you are and what your art is. |
Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Truthteller writes: ". . . magic in the US has become so "family" that it is almost stunting to artistic growth."
Yeah, what did all those bozos who performed for a couple of hundred years before 1960 know anyway! Houdini, Blackstone, Dante, Slydini, Cardini, J.B. Bobo, Dai Vernon, Fetaque Sanders, Burling Hull, the list goes on and on. Those guys sure "stunted the artistic growth" of magic! |
IanBrodie Regular user 147 Posts |
Jon - I don't think the line you're talking about would have offended, especially not if delivered tongue-in-cheek - might even have been funnier in the circumstances. On the other hand, since you felt uncomfortable about it it was best to leave it out. Trying to deliver a line you feel uncomfortable about in a funny or subtle manner is well nigh impossible.
Peter, I think there is something in what Elwood/Truthteller are saying - and I don't think they were attacking the greats of yesteryear by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not based in the US, so I don't really know the dominant ways in which US magicians are performing - but I do know that I constantly read advice to be conservative in presentation style and to avoid offending anyone. Magic is probably the only art form in which this is the case - in others one is constantly being urged to push the boundaries. Regarding the greats of yesteryear - I don't think they were all super conservative either. They may look like that nowadays, but folks like Malini for example certainly pushed the envelope of how magicians should perform. And from what I see of some of Dai Vernon's presentations and stories on the Revelations tapes, some of his routines were "edgy" or "risque" for the times. Just my thoughts, Ian |
truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Peter,
Where in my post did I imply any performer for 200 years prior to 1960 were Bozos? What I said was that magic has "become so family," I am talking about today. But, lets look at some of your examples, because you do bring up some interesting points, first Slydini and Cardini. I would argue that neither men were "family performers" per se. Their acts were not offensive, but they were not designed to appeal to everyone from 4 to 84, which sadly most magicians today feel obliged to do. (Sure, Slydini did perform on McCallister's shows, but the reactions were not what we would have received from a group of sophisticated adults.) Vernon made most of his professional appearances at night clubs and gentlemen's professional clubs (as per conversations with Roger Klause.) These were adult venues and Vernon was presenting adult magic in a sophisticated manner. He was not out in a red suit, loud tie, trying to "get as many laughs" as he could. Hofsinzer did not do children's parties, nor did Houdin (aside from showing the needle in eye to some friend's of the family). The bar magicians of the 50's were anything but family, and lets not forget the magicians who worked the burlesque houses. I do not consider any of the men you listed, or placed into your time frame, BOZOS, nor in my post did I imply that. In fact, I think there may have been a greater appreciation for adult magic in the past than there is today. I will say that each of the men you listed (with perhaps a couple of exceptions) were products of their time, and would not be commercial successful today doing the same material in the same style. I do think each of them was intelligent enough to understand there times and would adapt accordingly. But let's move the argument into a different art, music. In 1911 Rite of Spring was premiered and caused riots in the city streets. Today, it is music for "grey hairs." The Beatles and Elvis were seen as a sign of Armageddon, they are now "oldies." Ozzy Osbourne was going to steal all of our souls, and now he's a reality sitcom on MTV. Each of these artists pushed the envelope and led us to the next advancement in the art. Where do we see that in magic, anywhere? But to the original point: magic today is a bunch of guys thinking they are "up to date" when they are simply rewriting the Rite of Spring. Sure its a good piece of music, but its anything but artistically/culturally challenging (anymore). We're all presenting "Mr. Bailey Goes to Washington" when the other arts are presenting "Memento, Pulp Fiction, and Schindler's List." Why can't magic embrace something of substance like the other arts, instead of being forced to wear the same tired outdated tuxedo, going through the same tired lines, acted like a failing automaton built in the era we still reside philosophically. Why won;t magic conventions feature those trying to make a difference, instead we get Duane Lauflin. (Note to board: Duane is a great guy, but his magic typifies the point I am trying to make. In the beginning of his show he makes a point of telling the audience what he does is just puzzles to be figured out. He is the master at not making waves.) |
Bobcape Elite user Rapid City, SD 470 Posts |
I'm not trying to be argumentative but I have a different opinion from some. I have a certain style that works well for me, as I'm sure that everyone does. I try to use lots of humor and my patter is interactive and longer than a lot of magicians use. I rarely use flashy manipulations and I dress conservatively.
Most of my bookings are from repeat customers or from guests at a booking or that have visited me at a restaurant. The reason I mention all of this is for background. When I get hired, my host/hostess has an idea of how I'll perform. My goals are to ensure that they get their money's worth and that the guests are entertained. I don't get to choose my audiences (other than declining a booking if it's not a fit). So I make my performance fit me and a wide variety of audiences. Nowadays, you don?t know if the person you're performing for is a minister, a biker or both. So I try and make my performance fit everyone. I perform magic because I love it, but I also perform it to get paid. I think that there is a big difference in performing for the art of magic and performing magic as a business (there's nothing wrong with performing for the art or for fun). I simply cannot afford to offend a future client for the sake of a line that I want to include for my own gratification. Since Jon mentioned that this was a party that he was working, my opinion is to tailor your routines so that you don't have to worry if they will offend someone. That doesn't mean that you have to sterilize or dumb-down everything you say, just evaluate it for all perspectives. I'm not implying that my opinion is right for everyone it's just something to consider. (Sorry for the long-winded post.) Bob
Be Amazed! + Enjoy The Magic!
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Jon Allen V.I.P. England 1771 Posts |
So has anyone *actually* performed for a celebrity and used a line that could be seen as being aimed at the person? My example was to question the legality of ownership of a ring belonging to someone associated with a fraudster.
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more. Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk |
truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
I worked for one high profile company whose CEO was imprisoned, I believe, for fraud. If I had made a crack at their expense it would have been one thing, and some may have taken offense. I did however do gambling, cheating material and had a couple of them offer up lines like "Did you learn this from so and so." I did not think twice about using my material as that is the reason they hired me.
I think many people can recognize the difference between something intended to insult or hurt someone, and an exisitng line which they may read more into should they choose. If a Winona Ryder went to a play about shoplifting, would the actors change their lines on her account? Further, one can always reply with, "In all the years I've delivered this script, it never has taken on the same meaning as it does right now" and an embarrased look will more than cover you. One, it lets them know that you are not trying to insult the person, you are just delivering your line, doing your job as a professional. Second, it can become a nice moment where your hummanity shows. Rather like a magician in trouble effect but without the looming shadow of incompetence. Of course, we can all imagine extreme examples where this might not hold true, but in all of my experience I stay true to my art and have not once had a complaint. |
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