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gmindmagic
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Hi
The tables on the Floating Tables website above look like the same, and I'll bet they are made by Thomas Clark. ( you do a search with his name) He use to sell them on ebay and his site. I do own one so I would comment on it, but I won't!!! He had promised not to sell them any longer and removed them from his site after taking much heat. You guys take it from there.
eSamuels
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Thad, while I understand your defensiveness because you might have felt that your thread had become quite critical, the vitriol seems excessive.

For the record, allow me to clarify the points I made, which you have countered.
But before I do that, if you re-read my original post, I did state, quite clearly:
"Regardless of the issue of origin (which I recognize is an important discussion point), I'll restrict my comments to the tables themselves. And please keep in mind that I have not seen, nor used the 'new' table discussed on this thread"

I also want to be careful with what I say, as this thread appears to already have tipped over the 'exposure' line.

With that in mind:

1.
Quote:
Stan Corrected needs to be corrected. This does float in 3 different methods, one which is TOTALLY new, as far as I can research. No current table floats in this other method. Is this other method the most wonderful way possible? No, but it does enable you to do things you can't with Balsa tables. Here is the secret. One leg has a finger hole near the base. While floating it high, you can insert your finger and hold it up while letting go of the zombie gimmick. It does take some strength, some coordination and practice. I do not use this method in my act because I don’t make the grand gestures as does Losander.

I acknowledge that one of your "methods" appears to be unique (the "finger" method - which looks more like a balancing act than a floating performance), but let's be honest, the main method for floating this style of table is shared. Regardless of minor modifications to the device, or the angle from which it 'attaches,' the main floating methodology is essentially the same. The 3rd method, the table top/flat hand method/gaff has been most certainly been used before, and, as we all know, is a variant of the 'hands-free' method employed with a box, vase, or simply the bare hand using a m*****t.

2.
Quote:
Third, Stan Corrected says he has owned one of my $400. I can assure everyone he HAS NOT. On the other hand, he is right, this is not the same as a Losander’s. The way they float is different methods. This one IS MUCH heavier (and stronger) than Losander’s. My Balsa ones hare heavier than Losander’s too. The method I use does not rely on a table being feather-light and fragile. Even if you consider a Losander's a “BMW” (while taking nothing away from Losander's, I don't), you will find a Honda gets better millage with fewer break-downs than a BMW. Also most magicians will not be able to afford even the lower end Losander. In my opinion, you can spend your thousands in much better ways that a simple floating table. The main thing you get for your money with Losander's, as with a BMW, is prestige. Using this same logic you should wait for Ferrari?

I did, in fact, own a table that looks identical to the diamond mahogany on your site (with purple tasseled cloth), for which I paid $400, but not directly from you (it was a Thomas Clark table). I would be surprised if it was not the one pictured, but as I did not buy it directly from you, I will certainly acknowledge the possibility that it is not one of yours. Regardless, as you have stated, the table is heavier than a Losander - which has a direct bearing on how it will 'float.'

As for your response to my car analogy; on that, my friend, we simply do not agree!

3.
Quote:
Fourth, Stan Corrected advice to save up to buy a Losander’s and not buy another IS JUST BAD ADVICE ANYWAY YOU LOOK AT IT. If you buy this table and you like it, you are saving yourself a grand or more. If you are not happy with it, Losander will discount one of his tables $500 if you give him mine, saving you over $200. If you don’t like mine, and still have to save for Losander’s (even after the $500 discount), in the in–between you have one to use. You can’t lose.

I stand by my statement. I would also reiterate that "for some people it will be acceptable." (in reference to less expensive tables)

Finally, my post very clearly stated:
Quote:
This is not a criticism of the 3-legged table that is the subject of this thread, but rather a compliment of the highest order for Losander tables. Yes, they are quite expensive (an investment, in fact) but you really do get what you pay for!

I appreciate how you may feel that your initial post was 'hijacked,' but when you are marketing a product in a category where the leading brand has a very strong following, comparisons are inevitable and justified. Particularly from a designer who has a very loyal customer base, based upon both his product and his customer service.

All the best.

e
gmindmagic
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Hi

Captain are yo sure you manufacture these or just sell them for Thomas. Here's a link to a thread: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&start=0 Read this thread a lot will come to light.

In 2007 you are defending Thomas and touting his table and you have his pictures on the floating table website.

Oh and buy the way on Thomas's site, on his homepage http://www.magicsax.com there is a picture of him with one of his tables.

Thomas I have nothing against you. Heck I even have one of your tables it's been sittin in the case since I purchased it off ebay (Losander should not have to absorb my stupitity). And yes Thomas is one of the niciest guys, who will try to make anything right. I just get a tingle when all the sudden last year Thomas removes the tables from is online store and now the Capt'n is selling them? Arrrrr!
Tony Chapparo
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Quote:
On 2008-12-10 14:43, The Great Smartini wrote:

If all else fails you can always use the $275 that you spent on this table to participate in Losander's $500 deal for trading in a table from any other manufacturer for one of his tables. You will find info on this promotional deal as well as the following quote from http://www.losander.com:




What? This is just wrong. Losander should knock $500.00 off of one of his creations just because someone wants to test drive a likely lesser model?? Plain wrong.
Tony Chapparo
The Great Smartini
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Quote:
On 2008-12-12 17:35, Tony Chapparo wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-12-10 14:43, The Great Smartini wrote:

If all else fails you can always use the $275 that you spent on this table to participate in Losander's $500 deal for trading in a table from any other manufacturer for one of his tables. You will find info on this promotional deal as well as the following quote from http://www.losander.com:




What? This is just wrong. Losander should knock $500.00 off of one of his creations just because someone wants to test drive a likely lesser model?? Plain wrong.


Tony,

The intention of this thread was to have people give a fellow magician an opportunity to promote/showcase their product. I'm certain that constructive feedback or respectfully asked questions would have likely been met with a reasonable response. I do like the look of the tables shown on the website but not so with the table/stool shown in the video.

I readily admit that I don't know the full history of the floating table. I do know that I respect Dirk Losander's work and his tables. I believe his tables are the best available and I regularly use my Losander table in my science show. I've had the honour of attending the Mystery School for the past two years and have the highest respect for both Jeff and Eugene. If they endorse the Losander table that is everything I need to know. Please note that I say "I" as I readily acknowledge that different people have different opinions on the history of the floating table. I'm not in any position to judge others particularly when I don't know the whole story.

So I say it's comes down to an individual choice and people are able to make their own decisions on what feels right to them. We don't have to agree and it would be nice if we all did this in a more pleasant fashion rather than getting personal or nasty. So if people are comfortable with the Losander integrity proviso then they have the right to try out these tables. If this doesn't work out for them then they also have every right to participate in the $500 promotion.

Still, I think I understand where Tony is coming from and Tony please correct me if I'm mistaken. You're advocating for people to purchase tables directly from Losander and not buy other tables because you consider them to be copies or knock offs. This is a totally reasonable position that is supportive of Dirk Losander and his tables. However, if he has a trade in promotion (and it appears that he has it because of what some believe to be the prevalence of floating table knock offs) then people are allowed participate in this program. Finally, for the record I respect the work of Dirk Losander and that is why I have one of his tables.

jeff

ps. .
1906Alpha1906
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Ok, I, Thomas Clark, just happened to run across this post as I frequent the Café often to see different areas of things, and I have to step in ONLY BECAUSE my name has once again been brought up in a fashion that I feel is unacceptable! Pretty much I am at the end of my rope with a lot of this to be honest with you. Enough is enough.

First, Stan Corrected, did in fact purchase his table from me directly LAST YEAR in 2007, I did IN FACT make that table THEN. He made his purchase is APRIL of 2007. That was over a year and a half ago. A YEAR AND A HALF AGO PEOPLE!!!! That was when I was advertising them, and then all the controversy started in AUGUST of 2007 (Yes, 2007!!!!!!!!). After all the unwarranted attacks about them and the things said, I felt it best to stop advertising them and pull them from my site, which I respectfully did. And now, a year and a half later, some have the nerve to bring me back into this? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? My point here is that Stan did not purchase it from Captain Kid, that is correct, he purchased it from me, Thomas Clark.

The tables on Captain Kids site are in fact old tables. I talked with Captain Kid LAST YEAR 2007, 2007 - SEE THE YEAR - 2007?! when all the controversy had started, and being the craftsman he is, he had asked me if it were "ok" for him to make tables since I was not going to be doing it any more. He liked the styles that I had to offer. I told him he was more than welcome to do anything he wanted to do because I was "over it", and I was over dealing with the issue. I also warned him about this kind of behavior from others. We chatted about a few things person to person, and the designs he was more than welcome to have. I was over the crap being said, and was over the negativity being spit out at me, and they now belonged to Captain Kid. Well folks, if so much research was being put into everything, why didn't you research the 'startup date" on Captain Kids site? huh? - you'll find it was LAST YEAR 2007!!!

Captain called me a few times about a few things on the table (in 2007!!!), but as far as I know, he only started the site, and didn't follow through (correct me if I'm wrong Captain Kid, please). We chatted again, and he told me he was going to develop a whole new table, a whole new method, and not use what I said he could have. So, folks, the site was there, but was not being used. I know, I know you're asking "Then why keep it up?" - I don't know, its not my site, I have enough issues to deal with than someone else's webspace! I am sure that with his new table, those old tables will be taken down which is probably a good Idea to do Captain Kid, and your new tables to be put on.

I am just clarifying things here is all, so don't 'fire back' at me, as I should not have even been brought into this by ANY MEANS whatsoever.

Gmindmagic - I am not upset with you, but to make that comment about 'absorbing your stupidity' Kind of hurts. Sorry you feel that way. I hope that my explanation has cleared up why MY table, on MY site, is the same.

Leave me out of this. This thread is NOT about me, so don't even go there! Honestly, I am pretty ticked off right now if you couldn't tell (not that it matters to anyone because you are miles away and could care less I know, and I normally don't blast my emotions out on the internet, but this has to stop.

-Alpha - THOMAS CLARK
TheTableTopTrixta
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Thomas I feel for you man, this thread it BRUTAL!

Can this just stop

buy a table of you like them, don't buy one of you don't like them

Simple
The Great Smartini
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Quote:
On 2008-12-13 12:07, TheTableTopTrixta wrote:
Thomas I feel for you man, this thread it BRUTAL!

Can this just stop

buy a table of you like them, don't buy one of you don't like them

Simple


I agree with this and one would think that buying a magic prop could be as simple as that. Unfortunately, it seems like this isn't the case. The problem of course stems from the great number of ripoffs (and I'm not saying that Captain Kid, Thomas did this...not saying that at all). Many (including myself)can easily slip into a tone of conversation that we wouldn't ordinarily have with a fellow magician. I know that we're all adults and we can take criticism but I'd still really like the discussions at the Café to be more constructive. If one believes that something is being done that's wrong then it certainly more productive to send them a PM where it can discussed more privately. None of us end up looking good in these types of posts and if our potential clients do a "Blackle" search they can easily end up being directed to one of our Café posts which would likely leave a somewhat negative impression. I say this as someone who has found myself doing this and its really not cool. Captain Kid and I have had some "heated" discussions in our time here at the Café and I think that's because we both have strong opinions about our magic. I hope that in this thread that I've steered clear of this type of commentary and have stated my thoughts in a more respectful manner. Captain Kid is an extremely knowledgeable magician as is evident in many of his posts. He's also a guy that shoots from the hip so to speak and I respect that kind of person as you always know what you're getting. He's a real person, who doesn't need me defending him, but hey why shouldn't I stand up for him if I feel that's appropriate?

jeff
Douglas Lippert
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Did Losander invent the floating table? Can someone just answer that?
Douglas Lippert
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Decomposed
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Quote:
On 2008-12-11 00:25, Eric Samuels wrote:
I've owned a number of different floating tables, and have kept only one; a Losander.

Regardless of the issue of origin (which I recognize is an important discussion point), I'll restrict my comments to the tables themselves. And please keep in mind that I have not seen, nor used the 'new' table discussed on this thread (although having seen other alleged "different methods," I can assure you that they all essentially work in the same manner).

First, the Losander table is designed and built significantly better than any other table I've used. It is incredibly light, yet surprisingly sturdy, with superb balance. Some of the other tables are quite heavy, by comparison, and this IS an issue in performance.

Second, Dirk's (Losander) training DVD is superb. As Bill Abbott suggests in his new "The Thing" upgrade kit, which contains training from Cirque De Soleil's Paul Wildbaum, a floating table performance requires significant 'performance,' and can look terrible when performed poorly.

My final point is the extraordinary support that comes with a Losander table. Through an absolute "duh" on my part, I severely damaged my table. Dirk's response and support was extraordinary - an rare virtue in today's magic market.

To encapsulate my experience with floating tables, when performed well, a Losander table is like an exquisite ballet...while, at best, the other tables I have owned were akin to a marginal line-dancing exhibition.

This is not a criticism of the 3-legged table that is the subject of this thread, but rather a compliment of the highest order for Losander tables. Yes, they are quite expensive (an investment, in fact) but you really do get what you pay for!


Agree...I saw Losander do his in Vegas, a precious sight to behold.
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Who is nikola paris and why is he so brutal in his criticism? There is no law being violated here? How dare anyone but Losander sell floating tables?

I think Kerry (Thad) makes a great point about durability and about the needs of the working magician and I think that's all we should ask of him. Me, I drive a Toyota, and these days I am darned glad I do. . . I find that sometimes those who get too caught up in the "sizzle" (that is the right word for it), often get burned. So thanks for making this table available. Yes the production values on the video could have been better, but it looks like a good piece of work and I hope I can purchase one.

Regards,

Todd
Nat
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I, too, am looking forward to purchasing your table. And thanks for the discussion...it seems that some individuals hold an position that is not based on information, simple a lack of knowledge.
Nate


Quote:
On 2008-12-09 21:15, CaptainKid wrote:
1)3x 30" legs - optional 3 x 6" legs!
2) Much Stronger
3) Can work as a side table too -will hold 20 lbs.
4) floats ala zombie, magnetic and a new method.
5) $275
Coming Soon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVk_5wX6dyQ
Mumblemore
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What I don't understand is why people get so worked up about this. Unless Losander came up with the idea, he does not have the patent (not to mention that others could readily come up with it separately). It is not rocket science.

I am sure Losander's tables are fantastic, but they are not for everyone. Many of us would be worried to death about breaking one (I've seen them and how fragile they are - but yes, they are amazing when performed by someone who knows what they're doing). When I get to the Vegas nightclub level, I'll worry about it. In the meantime, I'll take Kerry's to my preschool shows and, if he is right, be thrilled that I have a more versatile prop to work with.


And this is not to disparage all the workmanship that no doubt goes into Losander tables, only to reiterate that Losander does not have the monopoly. There is still a free market, and clearly one which needs more selection on the value side (rather than just quality with "money being no object"), which Kerry seems to be addressing. Rather than poo-pooing the effort, we should laud it. If his product succeeds, this will put pressure on all dealers to lower their prices. No doubt Losander's tables are great, but what kind of markup do they have? Let's give Kerry's a try before torpedoing it. Why the aggression?
The Great Smartini
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Todd,

Good to hear from you on this topic. I hope that all is well with you and your magic. You've made many interesting and intelligent points on this topic. As I've stated in my previous posts I really don't know the whole history of the floating table debate. I originally purchased a table which wasn't a Losander table. Initially I was quite happy with myself for finding one at such a good price. Subsequent to this I came across the Losander tables including the proviso that I mentioned earlier ("...as a magician of honour...") I felt uncomfortable and thought I'd done something wrong as I assumed that the table that I purchased was a "copy". Accordingly, I switched to the Losander table when the opportunity presented itself.

I understand your position about the free market system but how then does a magical artist protect their original ideas, acts or products(again don't know if Losander has or should have exclusive rights to the floating table)? Perhaps they do this by providing the best product or by products at various price points that help maintain their market share.

jeff
tdowell
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Who cares who came up with the idea. That is not important.

The video of the "New Floating Table" is an absolute joke. I agree with paso8396 that the gimmick is painfully obvious. In my opinion this table is a disgrace to the art. In my opinion the developer had no love for the product or its performance.

This is about development and love of product and how it is performed for real people. Not money or profit. You must understand the product and have love for it and the handling of it.

There is no way I would ever buy any floating table set that was not produced and endorsed by someone who loves doing what they do, the true king of levitation:

LOSANDER!

Everything else is a joke.
The Great Smartini
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Todd,

How do you feel about the tables that are shown on the website? These appear to be of a good quality by someone who cares. Could you help me with a Coles notes version of the Losander table debate? Is this an original idea that was developed by Dirk or are his tables an improvement on something that came before? Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

jeff
tdowell
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Quote:
On 2008-12-14 00:52, The Great Smartini wrote:
Todd,

How do you feel about the tables that are shown on the website? These appear to be of a good quality by someone who cares. Could you help me with a Coles notes version of the Losander table debate? Is this an original idea that was developed by Dirk or are his tables an improvement on something that came before? Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

jeff


You don't get it.
gmindmagic
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Thomas

I do apologize your craftsmanship is suburb on the construction of the table I have, and it is a different animal than a Losander. Heck you make it look great on your videos.

What I meant by my stupidity is maybe I feel stupid as a working pro going to Losander with something that I purchased and just don't use, sayin here absorb it! Yes I know he gives a $500.00 credit towards one of his upper price tables and I did ask him about it in conversation his feeling are very strong on this Its his only way to have some sort of defense .

I guess I just prefer the more delicate handling of a Losander. The only reason I brought your name into this was because of your old pics on the floating table web site. Maybe the Captain should just re shoot his own pics, if he is going to sell your old table design. Again Thomas sorry. You are out of this.
magicmann
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I have just watched the video and I thought the table looks good. I assume you don't have to stuff your finger in the leg which is obvious.

I welcome anyone who wishes to try to add to our art, this is clearly not a Losander copy.

By the way who did first invent the floating table.

Paul
Eddie Garland
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Quote:
On 2008-12-14 11:02, magicmann wrote:
this is clearly not a Losander copy.
Paul


Well...Certainly not an acceptable copy...not even close.
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