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GarySumpter
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Reading this with interest.

Aside from the moral issues, which aren't LEGAL issues, but we all LIKE Losander and what he brings to our community, there is the issue of the prop and what it does.

Lets say that this product being sold here was the first ever floating table.

Having seen how it 'floats', 'swings' and balances, would you buy it?

Me? No.
Mumblemore
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I think Capt Kid (Kerry) cares about the art of magic. To infer otherwise without knowing him would be quite presumptuous. I think the tables look good, and furthermore help solve the problem of transporting balsa wood. I can't know for sure until I have one in my hands (and am hoping to purchase one and if I do, I will post about it), but all this pedigree nonsense (if Losander did not breathe upon it, it's not a floating table) is ridiculous. I agree with Jeff that in the market, people produce products at different price points to keep a market share. That's exactly what Kerry is doing. He is seeking a different market share than Losander's; that is what creates a demand for his good (assuming it is a quality product for the price). I cannot say for sure about the product; I can say that we should not "witch hunt" the guy just for challenging Losander. Tdowell's statement that "everything else is a joke" if it's not made by Losander is a little extreme, is it not? I have had interactions with Tdowell and find him to be a reasonable guy, but let's allow Capt. Kid to get his product out, and then judge it. Shall we?
cardone
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Just looking at the video it can be judged. The legs in the video Wobble .....look closely. And the Gimmick is very obvious. Whats next.. a $50 table or even better... one made of cardboad in kids magic kits ......Tommy Wonder's Zombie gimmick system that Losander uses makes all the others look bad. If you can't notice the subtlety of why that Wonder system is better then there is no help.
I did a gig a few years ago and someone after the show said to me "Wow that was great ....I never saw that done with a real table before...I saw It done a few weeks ago with a fake table" Case closed for me ...
The Great Smartini
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Quote:
On 2008-12-14 02:17, tdowell wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-12-14 00:52, The Great Smartini wrote:
Todd,

How do you feel about the tables that are shown on the website? These appear to be of a good quality by someone who cares. Could you help me with a Coles notes version of the Losander table debate? Is this an original idea that was developed by Dirk or are his tables an improvement on something that came before? Thanks for any light you can shed on this.

jeff


You don't get it.


Todd,

What don't I get? I own an original Losander table which I purchased as I thought it was the "right" thing to do. I read the Losander ad and saw that it had the support of Jeff McBride, Eugene Burger and many others. I have the utmost respect for Jeff and Eugene and this is why I've attended Mystery School for the past two years. It would appear that I have respect for Losander as I purchased one of his tables. Again, what don't I get?

As I read through this thread I hear that some people have a different opinion on the origin of the floating table. I don't know the history and so I asked the question hoping to find out more. Earlier this evening I was going through the guests of honour threads and when I saw Losander's comments I took the time to review it and found the following quote from Dirk:

"I will always remember when I invented the table. I showed the effect to my friend, Salvano. His mouth dropped, and he said that it was the best levitation effect he had ever seen, but if I wanted to master it - I would have a lot of work to do.

From that day on, I worked for over a year on the effect and came up with the presentation and all the details which help make this illusion so good. I will always remember what Salvano had said after a day of rehearsal when my fingers were almost bleeding (the magic was not easy and he kept laughing)."

So for me the Losander debate appears quite simple...he claims to have invented the floating table and people like Jeff, Eugene, Lance Burton and others seem to accept this as fact. Good enough for me and so it would appear my decision to purchase a Losander table was the right one.

Hopefully now you might think that I "get it". I still don't get why some people don't feel that he invented the floating table and am interested to find out their thoughts on the matter. If someone would take the time to do this I would find it most interesting. Thanks!

jeff
cardone
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Yes ...He did invent the modern style of the floating table ... all the new ones are knock off of his invention and style ... no one is knocking off the old Abbotts or the Owen magic style ....Tommy Wonder helped with the gimmick which Losander gives credit to ....This is a mom and pop business no one in magic is making multi Millions ... except the stuff marketed to laymen .... Whats next ....$200.00 fire cages ..... Or even better how about Cardboard sub trunks ... T shirt Straight Jackets ... so every hobbiest feels like a pro ...
SpellbinderEntertainment
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Thank you Cardone!

After all the banter on this thread, a few more clarifications:

The most common “raising table” was a Sprit Medium prop,
back in the 1800’s, it was generally a four-legged table,
raised by touch …but did not “float” as such.
There are several commercial versions today.

In consort with the late Tommy Wonder,
Losander developed several innovative floating gimmicks,
he applied one of his innovations to a “plant stand” style table.

So, yes,
Losander IS the originator of this version of the effect we love today.

There are other non-zombie methods on the market,
that do not interfere with Losander’s inventions,
such as magnetic and clip gimmicks.
They tend to rise but not float extensively.
Most are heaver and clunky.

Losander provides:
-An original methodology and handling
-A solid teaching of technique and routining
-Extremely high-quality props: attractive, deceptive, durable

There are many, many knock-offs appearing on the scene,
those found on the website in this thread
show some of these inferior knock-offs.

You get what you pay for, and that’s not much.
Some people drive a Lexis, some a Mercedes, and
some a broken-down old jalopy that gets from point A to B
The question is:
What do you want in your show,
what do your props and quality say about your magic.

If you can’t afford a high-quality Floating Table,
then my advice is- there are thousands of other effects to perform.
If you wish to put the effort, sweat, and artistry into this effect,
then scrimp and save and buy a true Losander.

He did the research and the combined innovation,
he provides the quality -and excellent product support,
he’s worked decades to perfect his product and performance.

…Add to this Losander is a kind, honest, gentleman of high-integrity!

All the verbiage in the world will not take that away from him,
and until someone finds and PROVES a totally innovative new method,
which is effective and magical,
I suggest not supporting unethical, inferior, and
second-rate bargain-basement badly designed and constructed knock-offs.

My thoughts,
Walt
en2oh
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Speaking of "Paper Floating Tables", there is a website that 'exposes' magic effects http://www.learnmagictricks.org which has a floating table effect made literally of cardboard. The 'gimmicks' are so poor as to be comical. Bottom line is that this is less about ownership of design than it is about teaching the art of floating a table. I won't post the link in case someone seriously thinks this is exposure but it's worth the time to search for this.

I think it's interesting that associated with these copycat props, the innovators have dropped their prices and brought introductory effects (Losanders' $500 beginners table) to the market. This is about free market and supply and demand. When a patented drug goes "off patent", the innovator company sales immediately drop >70%. If the innovator isn't challenged by imitation, there is little to drive progress. Prices fall, version 2.x products are released and the field advances. This is good for our field. It's good for most fields.

None of this is meant to detract from Losander's incredible products. His props are only a part of the value, as several have pointed out. What is a shame is that when strong personalities get fired up, good people can get frustrated, fed up and leave the forum. As a result, we're the worse for it. I was really saddened to see Thomas C dragged into this. I had taken a moment to email him last year about his tables and experiences with the forum when the topic was 'hot' and he generously responded to me "off line". Sean B took time to answer questions about his electronic props, again off line with no obvious sale in sight. That's what really talented professionals do. It's good business and most feel better for it.

In the natural history of a list/forum, good people get frustrated as a vocal few hijack the threads for their own ends and some good members ultimately leave. Sad but true. I hope no one is lost as a result of this thread.

Thanks to all who helped clarify and illuminate the issues. It's been well worth my time to read them.

Doug
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