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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Ball sizes for RNTII products. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Mr. Fumblethumb
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Amarillo, TX
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I was sitting here re-reading the statement that I got listing the products I ordered from RNT II when it dawned on me that with them out of business, the best source for replacement balls is going away also. I have an order in for a Le Petite Don Alan chop cup and the aluminum Monti cups. What size balls go with these products and can I still get replacements? I'm most worried about the chop cup.

As you might guess from my user name, I've worked out a fantastic vanish for small round objects. The rest of that routine I think you can imagine...

Don
When I vanished the knife at the end, the lady said;"You just made my day." And she had just made mine.
Levity
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You can find superior balls at other places. Try Pascaline Danis in France.

G
"I suggest you watch very carefully..."
Epiphany
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What you can buy is copycat balls. In 2002 my father and uncle were working on a project called PAM. This was right before my father teamed up with Mike Brazill and RNT II. One of the things my father brought to RNT II was crochet balls in Glitter and various unique color combinations and adjustable gaffed balls. Both were unique to the commercial magic market and the idea of my father and uncle.

Shortly after dad and Mike Brazill released the glitter balls through RNT II copycats immediately followed. Brett Sherwood started issuing balls in glitter, then came the Frenchman Danis, then James Tong started releasing multicolored and glitter balls. All these people rode on my father's coat tails and not even so much gave him a bit of credit.

I think I find it necessary to mention this as I read through the Café here about giving proper credit. RNT II brought foward the first commercial release of unique designed balls and others copied RNT II.


Despite the closing of the company, my mother will continue to make custom sets of balls for people.

Epiphany Jean
Levity
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Pascaline Danis is a woman, just for the record. And her balls are exceptionally well made.

G
"I suggest you watch very carefully..."
Epiphany
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Quote:
On 2008-12-18 08:14, Levity wrote:
Pascaline Danis is a woman, just for the record. And her balls are exceptionally well made.

G


So what does that have to do with copying or giving credit?

-E
MickeyPainless
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***So what does that have to do with copying or giving credit?***

Absolutely nothing Pip! I started to bring up the history of the glitter balls (as I understand it) but got off on another project then decided it would be better coming from you instead! I'm always amazed and impressed by the quality and tightness of Marcy's crochet work!

Mick
splice
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On this very site, Francois Danis responded to Brett Sherwood who claims to be the first to use this design, in 2004. Francois Danis says he (or rather his wife, Pascaline) has been making the balls and selling them in France since 1998.

We do not have one company standing above the rest as obvious copycats, but rather 3 different people claiming to have been the first to start using the design. Very much a "he-said, she-said" scenario.
Epiphany
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Quote:
On 2008-12-18 16:33, splice wrote:
On this very site, Francois Danis responded to Brett Sherwood who claims to be the first to use this design, in 2004. Francois Danis says he (or rather his wife, Pascaline) has been making the balls and selling them in France since 1998.

We do not have one company standing above the rest as obvious copycats, but rather 3 different people claiming to have been the first to start using the design. Very much a "he-said, she-said" scenario.


The fact of the matter is I did a "whois" on their site and it does not date back to 1998. I could not find anything else that supports the claim either in print or on ebay. As a matter of fact, the glitter balls showed up on the internet with RNT II before Danis or Brett Sherwood.

Mr. Sherwood was offering plain white balls with his cups while my father had already introduced the glitter and color designs through RNT II long before Mr. Sherwood did on his site. It was about 6 months after RNT II introduced the glitter that Mr. Sherwood did.

The glitter balls were also offered that same year on ebay, again no sign of Danis on ebay until about a year after RNT II had them on ebay. This isn't hearsay, this is documented.

My father approached Mr. Sherwood and he was anything but professional about it in his reply. This is where the bad blood started. So in my fathers fashion as he has always been open about it, if you borrow or take something from him, expect the do unto other effect to domino in your direction, i.e. a Princess 2 cup. Mr. Sherwood took without asking, why should he expect anything different? You reap what you sow.
Danis as well is no exception either.

-E
Levity
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Quote:
On 2008-12-18 23:04, Epiphany wrote:
So in my fathers fashion as he has always been open about it, if you borrow or take something from him, expect the do unto other effect to domino in your direction, ie a Princess 2 cup. Mr. Sherwood took without asking, why should he exepct anything different? You reap what you sow.
Danis as well is no exception either.

-E

Now that seems to me to be an admission by you that Mr. Sherwood's work was copied by your father in the form of RNT II's Princess 2 cup. I have no doubt that when Mr. Sherwood returns from his cruise he will bemost interested in that admission.
"I suggest you watch very carefully..."
Epiphany
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What it actually once again appears that someone like Mr. Sherwood can once again take what they like and not have to answer to others or go without scrutiny for his actions.

Mr. Sherwoods cups are not built from the ground up as advertised. There are a lot of misconceptions in his advertising and claims. First he did not bring the glitter balls to the market first. Another is that his claim that the cups have a unique bead placement design on them. This bead placement is exactly like the Stanley cups. My father owns a set that belonged to Al Flosso, if you pick up the cups they feel like Sherwood cups based on bead placement.

The top blending from the shoulder bead to the saddle represent that of a Paul Fox cup. This is not a unique cup, but a design derived from other cups. This is done a lot with cup manufacturing.

This just does not stop with Mr. Sherwood, but Danis and Mr. Tong who also make the glitter balls after the fact of the RNT II introduction to the market place with these.

I'm sure in the past glitter balls were made by people. But RNT II brought a full comercial line to the market place and the others followed on the companys coat tails in regards to design to cash in. Where is the accountability?

Epiphany
Blondin
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Oxford, England
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Quote:
On 2008-12-18 23:04, Epiphany wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-12-18 16:33, splice wrote:
On this very site, Francois Danis responded to Brett Sherwood who claims to be the first to use this design, in 2004. Francois Danis says he (or rather his wife, Pascaline) has been making the balls and selling them in France since 1998.

We do not have one company standing above the rest as obvious copycats, but rather 3 different people claiming to have been the first to start using the design. Very much a "he-said, she-said" scenario.


The fact of the matter is I did a "whois" on their site and it does not date back to 1998. I could not find anything else that supports the claim either in print or on ebay. As a matter of fact, the glitter balls showed up on the internet with RNT II before Danis or Brett Sherwood.

Mr. Sherwood was offering plain white balls with his cups while my father had already introduced the glitter and color designs through RNT II long before Mr. Sherwood did on his site. It was about 6 months after RNT II introduced the glitter that Mr. Sherwood did.

The glitter balls were also offered that same year on ebay, again no sign of Danis on ebay until about a year after RNT II had them on ebay. This isn't hearsay, this is documented.

My father approached Mr. Sherwood and he was anything but professional about it in his reply. This is were the bad blood started. So in my fathers fashion as he has always been open about it, if you borrow or take something from him, expect the do unto other effect to domino in your direction, ie a Princess 2 cup. Mr. Sherwood took without asking, why should he exepct anything different? You reap what you sow.
Danis as well is no exception either.

-E


I'm sure I'm not alone in finding this whole issue of who was first to introduce glitter balls to the market extremely tiresome? We are after all talking only about balls being covered in different material, about which you can have no rights whatsoever.

It might be another matter if it were found that your chop ball design was being copied. Equally it might help your case if it were seen that you advertised the fact that your chopped balls could be adjusted and gave information as to how to accomplish this when distributing them. It was only through this forum that I found out about the facility and when I e-mailed your company to find out more information I did not receive the courtesy of a reply. When I addressed the issue on this forum, Bill Palmer was kind enough to PM me details.

More serious is your admission that you deliberately copied Sherwood's cups out of spite!
jegreene
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I don't see what the big deal is. Who cares? As long as I can buy a ball or cup and it is high quality, then I am happy. I wouldn't care who made it first as long as there is good customer service after the sale. That's just my opinion.
silverking
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Quote:
So in my fathers fashion as he has always been open about it, if you borrow or take something from him, expect the do unto other effect to domino in your direction, ie a Princess 2 cup. Mr. Sherwood took without asking, why should he exepct anything different? You reap what you sow.
-E

Interesting to read that, after dozens of Café posts from RNTII staff denying the similarities between the Princess cup and the Sherwood cup, that in fact there was a direct intent on the part of RNTII to copy Brett Sherwoods cup design......this done by RNTII simply to spite Brett Sherwood.

An open admission from a principal of RNTII finally puts the issue to rest.
splice
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Quote:
So in my fathers fashion as he has always been open about it, if you borrow or take something from him, expect the do unto other effect to domino in your direction, ie a Princess 2 cup.


I don't ever recall your father being open about the fact that he copied a design from Brett Sherwood to spite him. That's certainly news to me, and it changes my whole perception of your company.
silverking
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Quote:
On 2008-12-18 23:04, Epiphany wrote:
The fact of the matter is I did a "whois" on their site and it does not date back to 1998. I could not find anything else that supports the claim either in print or on ebay.
-E

Actually, the fact of the matter is that a WHOIS search doesn't tell you if Pascaline Danis was selling the balls at magic conventions, advertising in french magic magazines, selling them to folks on her mailing list.....it only tells you when the actual domain name you're on was registered.
In fact, the WHOIS search doesn't support your argument in any way whatsoever, other than you'd like to tell us all that it should.

In fact, you cannot in any verifiable way dispute the claim that Pascaline Danis was making and selling glitter balls in 1998 other than to say "I couldn't find anything".

They have stated that they sold the balls in 1998, and until you can prove factually otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on.

The minimal depth of your seriously flawed research is indicated in your reference to the "Frenchman Danis", when in fact we are speaking about a women of French citizenship.
TheAmbitiousCard
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Quote:
On 2008-12-19 10:19, jegreene wrote:
I don't see what the big deal is. Who cares? As long as I can buy a ball or cup and it is high quality, then I am happy. I wouldn't care who made it first as long as there is good customer service after the sale. That's just my opinion.


You're thinking purely as a consumer. What about as a creator?

How would you like it if you came up with a famous design for something and invested 10s of thousands of dollars bringing your dream to life. You were proud and were able to sell them for $129, almost doubling your money with each sale. In 3 years you'd break even and then start making a profit. Then someone bought "it" from you, sent it to China, had thousands made, and was selling in inferior copy at CostCo for $69.00, making 10x their money and now instead of it being called the "jegreene machine" it was now known worldwide as the "henry hoopster". And mister Hoopster cashed in on your idea. Your research. Your investment. Your dream. And you go broke.

Because people like you don't care (no disrespect meant and you're certainly not the only one) laws have been created to account for this common lack of perspective.

There is not a sole on this thread that agrees with you. Not Sherwood. Not rnt2. NOBODY. Please respect the ideas of the creators. Put yourself in someone else's shoes. Please.
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Magic Researcher
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A few quick searches uncoverd another dealer who offered glitter (gold and silver) crochet covered balls prior to 2002; but probably not before 1998. A couple quick emails confirmed the search results. So the copying of Mr. Sherwood's design was really uncalled for for any reason.

Am I the only one who sees a strong resemblance between the so-called Mendoza Cups and Gary Animal's design? There seems to be a trend of copying other people's designs here.

The other cup manufacturers have certainly been copied. There are probably additional examples of such copying then covering it up with long winded spin. I may look further.
MR
Repeating a falsehood often and loudly does not make it true.
Levity
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Quote:
On 2008-12-18 07:45, Levity wrote:
You can find superior balls at other places. Try Pascaline Danis in France.

G


This whole thread started with someone who was concerned that the best source of replacement balls was disappearing. I still stand by my initial post in regards to this (above).

And fa la la la la, la la la la.

G
"I suggest you watch very carefully..."
Blair Marshall
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Ho! Ho! Ho!

B
jegreene
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Frank, I do not think that you are disrespecting me and I would never disrespect you or anyone else at the Café. You are just voicing your opinion like I did. I do understand what you are saying, I have a problem with people getting bent out of shape because someone puts glitter string on a ball before or after they did. Does this mean that are the only people who who have the right to put glitter string on a ball? I don't know the answer. I have bought balls from RNT2, Sherwood and James Tong and other places also. And one more thing, I wish I had bought the Princess Cups if they are the same quality as the Sherwood cups. I could have saved a few hundred dollars. Enjoy the Holiday Season.
Jegreene Machine
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