I have a serious question for all the people out there that participate in some sort of magic whether it's professional or just hobbies. What is the big deal if someone does a reveal video of a trick that they purchased themselves? I mean aren't the people who are selling the videos, DVDs, downloads doing the same thing, the answer would be yes they are revealing the trick or tricks at a price.

So if I or someone buys a DVD learns the trick and makes a video and sells the reveal for a price what is wrong with that. I mean how many of us think that the trick it self isn't worth the price they are selling it for, it's really the price of the DVD that we are really buying.

Please don't say well they made the trick themselves and that gives them the sole right to sell it exclusively, how many tricks or re-do's of old tricks just more modern or redone to fit a different version, there are many examples to give, but I just wanted to get others view and opinions on this matter.

Well I see your point, but on the other side of the spectrum, magic is similair to art. Is it fair if I took Van Goughs Starry Night and made copies and sold them with out him recieveing a cut or in this case now hsi family recieve some sort of royalties?

Magic is a secret art, and by revelaing it for free it makes just nosey people who want the secret to be able to find it. The point of paying is to show that you are commiting to the art and learning the secret. Not many would just pay for just a secret, but if you were to use the secret you would be willing to pay for it.

On top of that the people who do expose magic have no right to do so, because they don't fully have the undertsanding and psychology of the routine that the creator does. Most that expose perform the effect Half ass and there slight of hand and presetation are disgraceful.

Overall many creators of magic will stop putting therre effects out in order to keep it protected from exposure, so we as magicians will lose many great minds in mgaic. Is this bad , yes, could it be good , possibly because it might force other to be creative.

Magic is also a business, by revealing secrets that many brick and morter shops sells, it will put them out of business, how do you feel about having some lose his lively hood to support his family? This is why many small local shops have closed, do to interent exposure and bootlegging. Is it fair, not at all. How would it be if I decided to stand next to a flower shop and give away free seeds and instructiosn to grow the same plants for free.

Magic is not just a hobby, it is peoples lives. Yet those who expose do not grasp that concept.

SIX

So you need someone to explain why exposing a trick on Youtube is in poor taste??
Wow...

Ok maybe I'm not saying it right in my post. I'm speaking as if you made a reveal video and let's say you made a website and sold that video for a cost. not revealing it for free...there is a difference I think if it's for free it takes away from the art but if you spend $30 on an effect for an example and you charged someone a price to learn it from you. Just as the person who sold it to you did then there really isn't any difference. Let's take the Trick "Biddle" for example I've seen about 4 versions on different sites as downloads and different prices. for a trick that takes 5 mins to teach I pay let's say $5 to download it and then make a video as that site did and charge.

Oh ok I see what you're saying now Six, it's not exposure you're referring to, sorry.

If you're teaching a trick or sleight that's clearly a 'public domain' item then there really isn't an issue.
If you purchase a trick/sleight that is somehow unique to that performer or is original in some way only to turn around and sell it EXACTLY
as is then you get into ethical issues. Then you are stealing someone's creativity and wrongly selling it as your own.

I like the coins across routine on Homer Liwag's DVD 'Coin One'.
If I turned around and sold it on-line and changed absolutely nothing about
the routine I would be stealing his routine. I can make the argument that he didn't create the 'coins across' premise or even all of the sleights
but I'm stealing HIS version of the routine; something that he has made unique through timing, combination of sleights used, etc.
It's not ethical to take what HE created and sell it as if it was mine.

But I see what you're getting at Six, the waters can be quite murkey.
Some routines are very original despite the basic premise being the same. However, some look basically the same as all the other versions out there
with maybe a VERY slight change in the handling etc.
That's where the debate begins I go have a coffee...

How about a simple answer: You are cheating the actual inventor of the trick by giving away a secret that some other person will purchase.

Are people so starved for attention that they have to give away secrets so that they can appear knowledgeable? Would you like it if I found out your personal info like PIN number or checking account and put it up there for everyone to see? Using the logic that everyone uses for giving away information then there should not be a problem.

Greg

Are you serious??? I think hefemexy if frenkin' nuts. Exposure is exposure is exposure!!! Don't do it! Period!

Agent, sorry if Im lost, but I didn't start the topic,seems like you thought I did?

Ok now everyone is reading what they want I never said anything about giving away or exposure I said if the reveal was sold which is totally diff. So please don't try the sarcasm with stealing food from an inventor. then you need to speak to some of the websites that sell cups and balls I know they didn't invent the trick so how can they sell it for a profit are they taking food of the table for the orginal inventor of the trick no they are not. If I purchase a dvd or a book and learn let's just say card tricks and turn around and say if you want to learn this trick you can pay me or by this dvd from me how is that any different if the person who sold it to me ... they put a website and said If you buy this book or dvd you can learn how to do a double lift or something. I'm not talking about exposure for free I feel that is wrong,but if you say it's wrong to learn something then sell it yourself come on that's what magic is all about otherwise all secrets would have died with the orginal inventor if they said I know a trick but I wont show anyone how it's done even if they pay me ...so no one has answered the question how is revealing a video wrong ...

Well, if you think it's so easy then why don't you invent your own effects then sell them? And I'm sure you wouldn't mind if after you sell them someone who bought them turns around and puts up a site where he sells your effects for a price.

So first start by inventing some stuff because you seem to think it's an easy thing to do.

greg

Greg 100 percent with what you say
vinny

LOL oops! Yeah sorry Six you're not lost I am!
I didn't scroll up far enough when making my reply and mistook your post
for the one that started the thread. My response was directed at Hefemexy not you.

Here we go again I'm not talking about inventing a trick please open your eyes to more than just that.

Dunno how many of you are familiar with the Svengali deck. Don Driver ("Step Right Up" in this section) has a very good DVD showing how to sell the decks. Near the end of his pitch, he states, "Now I'm gonna show you how it works." And he shows the tip the long and short cards, but mis-directs why they are long/short. You really have to buy the deck to actually get the essence of the trick.

So while he says, "I'm gonna show you...." in fact, he does not. You have to buy the cards and even then, the instructions packed with the deck are kinda mysterious, to say the least. Most people (kids) will probably try a few times to make 'em work then pitch 'em in a drawer and forget 'em.

My point is, to sell the cards, we say we're gonna show the secret while mis-directing or not actually showing it. And the people have to buy 'em to theoretically learn the secret. And everyone who sells Svengali using Don's method does that. But I feel that is not actually giving away the secret until the cards are sold. So we do get paid before we give the secret, even tho we say we're gonna give it before we're paid. (Does any of this make any sense?)

Jon

Yes, to me jon it does. We are getting paid to reveal the secret, that is all I'm saying. There is nothing wrong with that.

Hefemexy, you seem to get angry at opinions expressed in this topic. If you didn't want their opinions, you shouldn't have asked the question.

In any event, there is a big difference in what you are saying. When someone invents an effect, it is his to do with as he sees fit. If he releases it to the dealer community, he is giving them the right to sell it and in return, he makes money for each one that is sold. If you purchase the effect and then sell the effect or method, you are in fact stealing money from him as well as selling something that doesn't belong to you.

Exposure is exposure whether or not you are selling it or giving it away.

First off dave you can't tell my temperment by words on a screen unless I was using explretives in which I wasn't so onto your point if exposure is exposure then magic shops are exposing if I walk into a magic shop and see an Acr performed an they say I have a book or DVD that will teach you that fir a price and I turn around and perform it at work or school and say hey I can teach you fir a price what is the difference the magic store didn't give it to me for free and I didn't give it to them for free

Hefemexy, I think you missed an earlier point. There can be something wrong with it. I don't mean that it would necessarily be illegal, just unethical, i.e. behavior that is rejected by virtually all magic societies.

If you want to sell some old idea by a long dead magician, where there were no heirs to the ideas, you can. If, however, you try to sell a modern magic creators unique idea, then that is sleazy at best. You are cutting into the profit of someone who did all the work.

And, creating new magic is definitely not easy. If it was, then lots of people would be creating their own magic. They aren't. Instead, most magicians seek out magic in books, DVDs, and videos. Then, they copy those ideas, hopefully with a new presentation so that all magicians are not seen as clones of each other, but that's a different subject.

You need to consider what it is you would be selling. To do that, you'd have to know something about magic history, i.e. who created what, and when. You can get that information here.

Personally, I do not like seeing magic ideas sold inexpensively. Some should be accessible to some people, of course, but only those willing to expend some minimal level of effort. I am not wise enough myself to determine what the level-of-effort should be in any particular case, but I do believe it should be above just browsing to a video on youtube.

If I had created an original magic idea, and others were selling it without my permission, I would be justifiably angry at the sellers. They might be doing something legal, but it certainly would be sleazy behavior.

OK...Lets throw a Monkey Wrench into this.... You purchase a DVD showing and explaining the 3 Shell Game. You learn it and perform it. You paid lets say $30 for the DVD...Now you decide to sell it. Can you still perform it in good conscience? Can you sell it in good conscience? I may be tarred and feathered for this but I believe that the answer to both questions is yes. I bought the DVD which was made to impart knowledge...I gained that knowledge and it is something that you cannot take away from me. But I now own the DVD and it is mine to do with it as I please. Go ahead, stone me.

Exactly aceover, you're heading in the right directions.