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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts 
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Chris,
I guess we're going to have differing experiences about what we know about Vernon. My closest friends were/are mostly direct students of Vernon and have related things to me about the man that inform what I say now. I'm not going to be able to convince you of what I understand about Vernon or the presumable validity of what they've related to me. I don't understand, though, why you feel that what you've read of Vernon has to be Vernon's last word. To come back with "Deception doesn't create suspicion" isn't sensical to me. The sentence goes to the issue backwards. Deception is created by the absence of suspicion. To deny there are varying levels of suspicion and conviction strikes me as someone who's just arguing to argue at this point. Ad hominem attacks can be slanderous or untrue in their lowest forms, but those qualities don't define what an ad hominem attack is, which is any effort to attack the opponent instead of the argument in an effort to deny the argument. By "attack," we refer to an attempt to refute or undermine in an argument, not classically "attack" -- we are, after all, engaging in a discussion of ideas. What made your argument ad hominem was when you left addressing the ideas and addressed me instead in an effort to discredit the ideas. To say, "I only know a few people who can do the handstand" is nowhere near the same as saying, "...very few people can actually accomplish that (the ideal diagonal palm shift)." The first would come from your personal experience ("I only know a few...") and I would therefore not refute. The second is an absolute statement beyond your experience ("...very few people can actually accomplish that...") which I disagreed with. You're drawing invalid parallels here. I saw/read exactly what you wrote, which you're now trying to shift. I would never make a statement like, "All palms should be done immediately...." What I wrote was that in general, all palms benefit from immediacy, the impression that there wasn't enough time or opportunity to have stolen a card (and there are techniques for both top and bottom palm that accomplish exactly this). I'm rather astounded that anyone would argue against this idea. You can find exceptions, but so what? You can talk about using tools for the context, but this doesn't change the fact that tools are almost always used better in some ways than others, regardless of the context, simply because they're designed to. If you don't believe this, hold onto the head of the hammer and try to use the handle end the next time you have an opportunity. Well, this has been fun, but not very productive overall. That's what happens when at one or both parties becomes more interested in arguing than in the arguments. And Steve... Quote:
I'm just enjoying watching a ****ing contest in which two fanatics are unfolding an accurate picture of their true character and intellectual ability.... Ouch. That hurts, bro. |
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Bobby Forbes Inner circle virginia beach, VA. 1569 Posts
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On 2008-12-28 20:52, Steven Youell wrote: Sorry, I forgot all of us insignificant's aren't allowed to talk. I haven't sat down with any of the worlds top cardmen, so that makes anything I say irrelavant...my mistake. And by the way, I can decide who is best at whatever I want  Now, let me go wipe my tears.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-12-29 18:26, Bobby Forbes wrote: I find that outright insulting. First, I said nothing of the kind. Second, my point was directed at an outright fallacy you made in your statement that is a common fallacy in magic. Since you missed the point entirely, I'll explain it to you: Unless you've have a significant statistical sample of a group, it is mathematically and scientifically incorrect to made a comparison as you did. So unless you've seen the work of the majority of a specific group, saying an individual in that group is the best at something is just plain wrong. Additionally, your statement denigrates the works of people you admit that you neither know nor are aware of. Quote:
On 2008-12-29 18:26, Bobby Forbes wrote: Yes, you can. You can also go around and say "2 plus 2 Equals 6.75". It won't do much for your credibility, buy you can say it.... Steven Youell Quote:
On 2008-12-29 18:20, Open Traveller wrote: Which part? Fanatics? We're all fanatics on this bus... Is this "Bro" thing gonna be a trend...? sey |
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Bobby Forbes Inner circle virginia beach, VA. 1569 Posts
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Steven,
After reading your posts over quite a long period of time here on the Café, I don't doubt you know what your talking about and give you all the respect in that department...But, you are quick to point out the insignificants in others by their magic history or credentials, who they know, who they've met, who they learned from. You think others cannot and do not give "proper" or good advice just because they are not a magic scholars. The fact is, I've seen guys that do incredible magic, and they have not studied up their magic history. They have not read all the books or seen all the videos. And surely have not sat down with and learned from the best. I remember a while ago someone tried to give advice on the pass and you shot them down to nothing just because they learned from a sankey video and do not know all the history of the pass. Frankly, the pass was light years better than yours. I would gladly take advice from someone who has great stuff even if they don't know everything about it. You basically told them their not worthy to give advice on such a move because they have not read up on the past masters who have studied and created it. I know the Steven Youell bandwagon is gonna flame me, but it doesn't matter LOL. I find the way you "correct" people's every word hilarious and entertaining to say the least. I love reading these posts 
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Chris SD Special user 737 Posts
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On 2008-12-29 18:20, Open Traveller wrote: I don't feel that way. I'm using the information that is/was available to me to draw a conclusion. As far as I know, Vernon never made any statements about his version of the diagonal palm shift being inferior to the Erdnase method. Quote:
Ad hominem attacks can be slanderous or untrue in their lowest forms, but those qualities don't define what an ad hominem attack is, which is any effort to attack the opponent instead of the argument in an effort to deny the argument. I am aware of what an ad hominem fallacy is. Lucky for me, this is not a formal debate. Quote:
To say, "I only know a few people who can do the handstand" is nowhere near the same as saying, "...very few people can actually accomplish that (the ideal diagonal palm shift)." The first would come from your personal experience ("I only know a few...") and I would therefore not refute. The second is an absolute statement beyond your experience ("...very few people can actually accomplish that...") which I disagreed with. You're drawing invalid parallels here. I saw/read exactly what you wrote, which you're now trying to shift. Still semantics, I stand by what I wrote. Once again, we've agreed to disagree. Quote:
I would never make a statement like, "All palms should be done immediately...." What I wrote was that in general, all palms benefit from immediacy And again, we've agreed to disagree. I feel that most palms do not benefit from immediacy because there is no moment; and the DPS may or may not benefit from being executed immediately based on context. Let me clarify, I am NOT saying that in general, palms benefit from being delayed or from extra movements, simply that immediacy does not directly benefit them. I think you have some good things to say, and at this point we've both said them in spades; and Steven Youell wanted us all to know that he made popcorn or something. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-12-29 19:10, Bobby Forbes wrote: Actually, that is not what I think. I'd be glad to discuss my opinion with you if you want to hear it though. Just PM me and ask me. Or do it in public-- doesn't matter.... Quote:
On 2008-12-29 19:10, Bobby Forbes wrote: You and I share this same experience. Terry LaGerould is one of those guys. Doesn't work or hang out with other magicians for the most part. Owns almost no videos or books. Phenomenal performer. Quote:
On 2008-12-29 19:10, Bobby Forbes wrote: No one has-- especially me. I own videos of only three performers and am not at all well read in regards to the latest books. Quote:
On 2008-12-29 19:10, Bobby Forbes wrote: I think you're talking about that Kamm guy. Perhaps I didn't word it just the right way, but my take on the situation was that he was contradicting Vernon and others without even bothering to read them. And if I remember correctly, I offered to buy him the books. He then made it clear that he really wasn't interested in reading them. Quote:
On 2008-12-29 19:10, Bobby Forbes wrote: Attention all bandwagon members-- This man has diplomatic immunity! There-- I called off the imaginary dogs, see? Tell you what Bobby-- I'll put my money where my mouth is. If you promise to read them, I'll send you two books you don't have. No cost to you except the time required to read them. Postage on me. Since I don't know which books you have or don't have, I'll start with offering you a copy of Pit Hartlings book in mint condition. I'll do this without expecting a single thing from you. You can continue believe what you want about me and I'll not try to change your mind. I'll never respond to any of your posts again. You can even say my Pass sucks. Doesn't matter to me. Just read the books. Let me know... sey |
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Bobby Forbes Inner circle virginia beach, VA. 1569 Posts
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That's very kind of you but no thanks.
Oh, and thanks for calling off the imaginary dogs too.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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On 2008-12-29 20:00, Bobby Forbes wrote: No problem. But please understand-- I'm not trying to convert you to any viewpoint here or "make up" with you. I want to make it clear that I'm willing to back up my viewpoint with my time and resources. Also, I have often been convinced that I'm wrong. Often. What does it is carefully constructed arguments, supporting evidence and solid thinking. Those three things will kick my *** every time.
SEY |
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Bobby Forbes Inner circle virginia beach, VA. 1569 Posts
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Understood. I apologize for any rudeness on my behalf...(no sarcasm there)
pm'd you by the way |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts
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Woof, snarl, grrrrrr..... put em up, put em up!
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts
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Oooh, dual streaming brawls...where's the mixing board?
Quote:
I don't feel that way. I'm using the information that is/was available to me to draw a conclusion. As far as I know, Vernon never made any statements about his version of the diagonal palm shift being inferior to the Erdnase method. The fact that you don't feel that way is fine, as is the fact that you're working with what you have. It's still strange, though, that you would argue against other input as if all you have is all there is to be had. Quote:
I am aware of what an ad hominem fallacy is. Lucky for me, this is not a formal debate. I suggest that because you misdefined it earlier, your understanding of the nature of an ad hominem argument wasn't complete. Ad hominem arguments are, by definition, fallacious, and that doesn't change whether you're behind a podium or standing in front of your local 7-11. Poor reasoning is poor reasoning, regardless of formality. Quote:
Still semantics, I stand by what I wrote. Once again, we've agreed to disagree. No, it's not meaningless semantics for me to outline precisely what you wrote, which is basically that the ideal of the immediate DPS can only be achieved by a very few. That's the point I contended. Now, perhaps it's possible that you believe I'm misinterpreting your position because the statement you wrote doesn't, in fact, correctly represent where you stand. Feel free to clarify; I certainly would appreciate it. Quote:
I feel that most palms do not benefit from immediacy because there is no moment... I'm not sure what you mean by this. If it means what I think it means, I can only point out that effects should have moments; methods should never have moments. Unless, of course, you WANT people to perceive the methods. That's a different thing altogether. If not, though, then palms shouldn't have moments. Ideally, there should be nothing about a palm that is perceivable on any level. In fact, the best palm would be one in which educated onlookers would not only swear that no palm happened, but they would swear that it was impossible for a palm to have happened. Oh, and you might want to hold off saying we've agreed on anything until I actually agree to it. Thanks... |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts
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Youell has a bandwagon?
:-o |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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On 2008-12-29 21:07, Open Traveller wrote: Unfortunately, it's in the shop right now. Apparently there's been a recall...
sey |
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JordanB Special user dallas, tx 626 Posts
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I have to say, I agree to disagree with both of you.
j/k
Let me tell a (true) story: I am a college student (28 years old) working on my accounting degree. Last semester, I took a class in which the class average for any given test was never higher than a 72 (on a 1-100 grading scale). Every class period before the test the professor would give a detailed review. As the semester progressed his reviews would cover more and more detail and they were straight from the test. The class average was usually a 68 or a 70. I never made below a 90. I asked my professor why he thought the average was always so low even though he made his tests easy and gave detailed reviews. His reply was that some people simply don't care. To be honest, I don't understand it, but nevertheless, it happens. This is true in magic as well and it is true about most other things. It doesn't matter if 50 DVD's come out explaining the DPS perfectly there will still be a plethora of people who do it in a mediocre fashion. Same thing with palming, top change, false shuffles, etc. It's not that they can't do it. On the other hand, there are people who are willing to put in the time to learn it and learn it right and it looks great. Chris's looks great. |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts
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Hey, Jordan. How's Bob doing these days? And is Chris one of your Dallas brood?
The points you make are pretty much what I've been trying to relate to Chris. So far, without much luck. Oh, well.
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JordanB Special user dallas, tx 626 Posts
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Bob is good. Recovery from open heart surgery is a tough, but not as tough as it was 20 years ago. He still looks like a million bucks though
.Speaking of Bob I remember talking with him about this very subject regarding palming..specifically in regards to Bob's palming DVD.
I honestly find this a very interesting subject, not particularly in regards to the DPS, but to magic and other subjects in general. I like Chris quite a bit, although he is only in Dallas some of the time. I only really see him though at conventions. I think he has some really good chops to be quite honest. |
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SpringBizkit Regular user 193 Posts
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Well I'm not saying I'm all knowing, as I'm the one who put this up. but I live in a student hostel and I decided to test out this choke and double choke thing and I have to say, to lay people.. that 1-2 second difference where you gesture with your left hand after it's in and passed through doesn't make a notice to them, however while I was thinking about what's better.. a quote did come to mind.. I don't know it word for word, but it's the quote that says that the deck should be like a hot potato or something.. you shouldn't have both hands on the deck at the same time, and if you do, it should be minimum, but showing both hands apart shows the most fairness.. something like that. So I guess the gesture motion kinda is like passing the deck from 1 hand to another. It goes from left hand, to both hand(insertion) to right hand (Biddle grip) then to both hand (the steal) and then passing it away. Although while writing that I have come to realize a horrible economy of motion. If I had it in my right hand in biddle grip.. why on earth would anyone bring it back to their left hand to only just drop it in the other person's hand or table. It just hit me lol. I mean, I could just hand it straight to them. (course I cant.. they'd see their card sticking out lol) so I think I'll work on a single choke for economy of motion's sake.. or if anyone that's wise enough ever wonders why I go through all those motions to just give the guy the deck. But either ways.. laymen don't seem to notice either.. that I've tested out around here.
Thanks a lot guys for all the info and help 
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bdekolta Inner circle Texas 1636 Posts
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So Jordan what would Bob say? Double choke or not? I know what he would say and Bob probably discussed the move with Vernon. For those arguing the point just read the original description in Erdnase and do the move. If you wonder what Vernon really thought just ask those that had spoken to him about it. It works just fine as written.
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Chris SD Special user 737 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-12-30 02:31, bdekolta wrote: LOL, I think we ALL know the answer to this. By the way, I totally agree that it works fine as written; and when performed well (and in the correct context) perhaps better than the double pump. My point (very briefly) was that they're both deceptive techniques, and that most people do not/will not put in the practice to perfect the Erdnase method. Open Traveller, I am of the Dallas persuasion... Well, Plano to be exact. But you have me at a loss as I still know nothing about you. BTW, your check is in the mail Jordan. |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts
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Quote:
By the way, I totally agree that it works fine as written; and when performed well (and in the correct context) perhaps better than the double pump. My point (very briefly) was that they're both deceptive techniques, and that most people do not/will not put in the practice to perfect the Erdnase method. Then I didn't misinterpret you. I agree that both methods work; I simply contend that one is inherently better than the other. I also stated myself that most people will not put in the effort necessary, but my point was that it was inaccurate to say that the move is beyond everyone but a few. I suggested we keep the bar high regardless, rather than lowering it to the level of the average. You do know something about me. You know I'm arrogant, tedious, pedantic and kind of an ass. If you knew something else besides that, would it change your outlook on anything I've written? I suspect probably not.
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Posted: Dec 29, 2008 11:20 pm 
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