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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
I think that in general, people want change in churches, schools, organizations such as scouting etc. because of deeply held ethical or political beliefs. Not only do I not find this surprising, I find it encouraging. How else could we have made the great democratic gains of the past three centuries without these people?
In the early part of the 20th century, should we have told women, "Why would you want to join a government that doesn't want you? Go join a different organization."? John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-06 12:00, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: John, there is a distinct difference between organizations which have as their purpose to be inclusive, and organizations which have as their purpose to be exclusive. Granted, the latter might wish an unethical exclusivity, but it is not always the case. A chess club shouldn't be legally forbidden to exclude those who do not play chess. Or maybe they should. I don't know. But it is definitely moving into the "potentially silly" category to require chess clubs to include chess haters. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Thanks, Jeff.
The issue for me is that those who want change can and should lobby for it. Sometimes they will fail, for any number of reasons, some of which I will agree with, and others not. What I don't want is to decree these actions wrong-headed from the start. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Quote: I have to disagree with you, a scout is required to memorize the scout pledge, motto and oath and these clearly are the founding beliefs. That makes it very apparent Scouts are not just about camping, merit badge earning and popcorn selling.On 2009-01-06 11:25, Payne wrote:
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
John, I understand.
But in the US, there are some cantankerous people who sue to join organizations not because they want to join in, but because they want to make some kind of political point about discrimination and inclusion. Now, I can fully imagine a young homosexual man who has a real desire to be a boyscout, and maybe he has a clear case for arguing discrimination. But when the same, tone-deaf young man sues the local church's boys choir, insisting that he was being discriminated against because one's voice shouldn't be a criteria for a choir--well, he's moving into the silliness category. Same boy. May God bless him. But in the first case he might have a point; in the second, he may not. But I'm not sure. What makes me different from other folk is that I'm wishy-washy and indecisive on stuff like this. Maybe I should start suing people.... |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-06 12:45, Tom Bartlett wrote: I was required to memorize the pledge, motto and oath but I was never asked if I actually meant them. I always felt funny saying the reverent part as I simply had nothing to be reverent to. But I never voiced my concerns about it nor made a big deal of it. I was only in scouts because my mother wanted me to be one. I myself had no interest in the organization. If I had known they would have kicked me out for my non-belief I most certainly would have brought it up.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
I was shanghaied into the scouts by the school psychologist and my parents. While I value the outdoor skills I learned, my social leeriness was confirmed for me. My fellow scouts were 70% juvenile delinquents with all the 'reverence' of a toadstool.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
I personally have never known any kid that was kicked out of Scouting for any reason. There are two or three that stopped because they ended up in detention centers and one that O. D.ed and died.
It's a shame that you (Payne) and Steve found Scouting to be such a waste of time. There are so many underprivileged kids that would be thrilled to be in Scouting but will never have the opportunity. The award winning magician Jason Latimer is an Eagle Scout and I sure he would tell you that you only get out as much as you are willing to put in.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
I only wanted to get the point across that, as a private organization, they should not get any special treatment from the government (which I believe they do).
Destiny, I remember that thread. And Mr. Bartlett's stance on things. Kevin
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-06 14:34, Tom Bartlett wrote: There are lots of things underprivileged kids would like to do but can't. That's the nature of being underprivileged. I seriously doubt I was taking any any poor underprivileged kids spot away from him especially in Cub Scouts as my mother was the den leader (a particularly nasty circle of hell that). So in reality we were making scouting available to more as we created a new pack just so I could experience the "joys' of scouting. For Webelos I had to go to a newly formed group as well since the program was brand spanking new. I was really looking forward to becoming a lion scout too. My Webelos (do the wobble but don't fall down?) experiences were pretty awful as well as we never did anything of merit. Camping trips were limited to the scout leaders back yard. Well basement really as every time we tried to camp-out it rained. I'm sure some underprivileged kid really regrets not having the memory of waking up in a dark dank basement to his fellow scouts playing a rousing game of strip Hands Down. Boy Scouts was equally a thrilling time. Being the fat kid with glasses and a funny name my fellow comrades would play silly tricks on me like trying to get me to drink a bottle of urine disguised as apple juice. We also went on Winter Camping Trips and dug torture devices called snow caves which our overlord leaders made us sleep in for their own delight and amusement. For all the years I was in this organization I really haven't a single pleasant memory from it. Had I known an underprivileged kid who would have taken my place I would have readily given him the opportunity to do so. Others might find some use out of this club. But for me it was a tremedous waste of time.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-06 15:26, Payne wrote: Builds chracter dammit! -especially the "strip Hands Down" bit...
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Quote: I get to quote myself: Hardship, adversity and tragedy happen to us all, some remember it as an adventure, it make a great story, others just drown in a pool of self-pity. -Tom BartlettOn 2009-01-06 15:26, Payne wrote:
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-06 16:35, Tom Bartlett wrote: Where pray tell am I "drown(ing) in a pool of self pity" I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for me. Just trying to express why scouting may not be for everyone. Hey if hanging out in the woods with adolescent boys is your thing more power to ya!
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-06 16:35, Tom Bartlett wrote: Seems to be all you really ever do. I guess when you're just that awesome...
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Quote: Thanks!On 2009-01-06 17:00, gaddy wrote:
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-06 17:12, Tom Bartlett wrote: I LOVE this forum! And I love you all! |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Stoney,
It's a great place to gather and to unload but most importantly have fun. One of the great lessons I have learned from this forum is, it's unnecessary to take yourself so serious; there are plenty of people that will do it for you. Man if you don’t use those smiley faces at the end of every sentence, they want to string you up!
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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MaxfieldsMagic Inner circle Instead of practicing, I made 3009 Posts |
[quote]On 2008-12-30 15:56, Payne wrote:
Quote:
I expect being taken over by the Mormon church might have had an adverse effect on membership roles as well Is that true? I'm a den leader for the Cub Scouts and I had no idea. When did the Mormons take over? Or were you speaking metaphorically?
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
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cardone Special user 860 Posts |
Hello... I'm an adult leader too and I have heard the same thing ..I will look into it ... I think it might be true .
I made a hobby out of researching Mormon history and how the church was formed and I was not to happy when I heard they owned it . |
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Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts |
From mormonstoday.com
Quote:
The LDS church sponsors 400,000 scouts in the BSA, accounting for about 12 percent of the BSA membership. No other church sponsors more units, and only the Methodists sponsor more boys in the program. From the limited and somewhat furtive contact I have had with Mormons I know that LDS stands for Latter Day Saints. Destiny |
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