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The great Gumbini Inner circle 3062 Posts |
Well not to start anything here but this whole matter depends on who came first the magician or the actor? Is the magician an actor? Or is the actor a magician as he is able to transform himself into someone else? However I will add that I believe when we look at the definitions given above it does help us to better understand what was meant by the original saying. This is very thoughtful insight.
Good magic to all, Eric |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-07 09:46, arielf wrote: Just a couple of points -- considering the relative amount of traffic on the I Saw That! web site and the Magic Café, I have a feeling more people saw my column than saw your post, even though you had a head start on me. Although I have visited your site on several occasions, I never saw it. Another point. "Prestidigitator" was not, at Hoffmann's time, a common word for a magician. It was and is basically a transliteration of the French word. To understand what Robert-Houdin was writing about, it is absolutely necessary to have the paragraphs that precede the one in question, because they are discussions of the meanings of escamotage and prestidigitation. If you read these paragraphs, then almost everything that you have explained is made quite clear. Writing about the paragraph without them is almost as dangerous as quoting the paragraph out of context. In fact, it is quoting the paragraph out of context. Regarding the word "magician" -- no matter how many dictionaries one may consult, there is really only one that is the final authority for British usages. This is the Oxford English Dictionary. It is particularly applicable in this case, because it is contemporaneous with Hoffmann, that is, the compilation that went into the first edition was started about the time that Hoffmann published Modern Magic. It is updated on a regular basis to keep it current. Anyone who writes in English should have a copy of it handy. The definition of magician in this dictionary starts with the various occult meanings of the word, then it adds occas.(ionally) a conjurer. This is still the common usage in the UK, particularly among people who are over 40 years old. Some of the younger people may use the words magician and conjurer interchangeably, but that is very likely due to influences from the US.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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arielf Regular user Toronto, Canada 133 Posts |
Lots of good info -- thanks Bill!
I was given the quoted paragraph, years ago, and made to understand that it WAS the whole context... ouch. Now that I know that it isn't, I understand why Hoffman's footnote was so terse. Let me just clarify one point: what I wrote about contemporary English usage of the word 'magician' was to explain why we (the tricksters) misunderstand RH's point so often. From what you're telling me, it's more of a North American thing, then -- which I suspected was the case. So now we know. (And for the record: at least a DOZEN people saw my original post -- so there! )
Ariel Frailich - I Saw That! Exclusive Magic, publisher of Sub Rosa, Reading Writing, Card Stories, Performing Magic for Children and other fine magic books.
https://isawthat.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
That's understandable. I read a lot of British publications, so I'm fairly aware of the differences in the terminologies between the two areas. When I was writing the Punx translations, I had to arm myself with the Oxford English Dictionary and the second and third editions of Webster's unabridged dictionary, because Craige Snader had been isolated from English for a long period of time, and had a tendency to use words that were basically incorrect.
The paragraph in question actually lies right square in the middle of a three-page chapter called (in English) Escamotage, Prestidigitation. In this chapter, R-H attempts to explain the difference between the two terms and goes into his famous quote distinguishing the sleight of hand performer from a juggler. All in all, I think Hoffmann did a creditable job of translating this chapter, as well as the whole book. But it's good to see other interpretations of these things.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Bob Clayton Loyal user 245 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-10 23:52, Bill Palmer wrote: Key to the whole chapter is the following line. “Neither one of these denominations [Escamotage and Prestiditation], however, authorized though they are by long use, is in my opinion fully adequate to describe the art of fictitious magic.” R-H then goes into his famous quote after pointing out the short coming of the above terms. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
That is true.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Mike Webb New user 70 Posts |
Invocation... ; )
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
In this same vein, I have a story that several have told me is true. Therefore, it must be an urban legend. In any case, it applies to this subject.
A psychology professor walked into his classroom and wrote the following on the blackboard, in large block letters: WALK WITH LIGHT He paused a few moments and then addressed the class, "Who can tell me what this means?" Several students tried their hands at explaining it. More than one suggested that it was a philosophical/moral imperative that meant we should follow "the light," whatever that was -- the right hand path, the teachings of the Buddha, the teachings of other great philosophers, God, etc. After about a half-hour of debate, argument and/or discussion, the professor said, "Those are all very interesting interpretations of this. And they might apply, except not in this context. The context is important here. This was on a sign at a pedestrian crossing, right below a traffic signal."
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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JRob Veteran user Central South Carolina 395 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-22 03:03, Bill Palmer wrote: This reminds me of what my late exegesis professor used to pound us with daily: "CIE: Context is everything"
"Jim Roberts, AKA: Professor Jay Rob "<br>
The Professor's Facebook Page |
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts |
Whilst I agree with the distinction made between "prestidigitator" and "conjuror", nevertheless, even those who perform self-working magic are still "acting the part of real magicians". Unless, of course, they present their shows as a challenge, for the audience to work out "how it's done". Personally, I find those presentations awkward and obtuse, it's missing the whole point of presenting magic as a theatrical entertainment, and instead being a "puzzle-maker".
I regard acting as the vital presentational elements of a good magic show. As mainly a kids' entertainer, the acting element is way, way more important than the tricks themselves. Double-takes, "look don't see", reacting to the magic in feigned astonishment - these are some of the acting skills we employ. Not to mention theatrical blocking (considering your movements, command of the stage, etc); varied vocal dynamics (whispered, declamatory, etc); interaction with the audience ("breaking the fourth wall"), over-the top reactions ("hamming").....and many other elements of acting, which can all play a vital role in the magician's performance. |
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Anatole Inner circle 1912 Posts |
Back B.M.C. (before the Magic Café) I posted a message on the Electronic Grymoire about the Robert-Houdin quote explaining pretty much what many in this thread pointed out in their posts about the whole point of the statement. After my message appeared, a French magician wrote in the following:
-----quote----- From: "jerome----" <jerome-----@ac.com> Subject: Magician as Actor & Robert-Houdin Dear all, Dear all, I would like to thank Amado Narvaez for his excellent explanation of Robert Houdin's statement in EG#1045. Being French myself I did read Robert Houdin's statement in his original words and never quite understood all the fuss that was made about it in the UK and in the US. As Amado explained, Robert Houdin attempts to define a new type of entertainers, the Prestidigitators. He then lists two traits which in essence mean "they act as if they had magical powers; they use skills to present these feats". I also always thought that a much better discussion of the Art in magic can be found in "Our Magic" by Maskelyne and Devant. ... Thank you very much Amado for paying such a tribute to a wonderful text which, like all original texts lose some of their meaning when translated. Regards. -----end quote----- Of course, sometimes a writer is not aware himself of the subtext of something he has written, perhaps because the muse that inspired it did not bother to point out all the nuances. ----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez Note: Here is the verbatim text of my original comment in the EG that the French magician was referencing: -----quote----- “A magician is an actor playing the part of a magician.” That is the most frequently quoted and most mis-understood statement ever made about the art of magic. It makes about as much sense as saying “A dancer is an actor playing the part of a dancer” or “A singer is an actor playing the part of a singer.” If you go back to Robert-Houdin's original French, you'll see that in context the statement was intended to distinguish a magician who does sleight-of-hand from a magician who does black magic. -----end quote----
----- Sonny Narvaez
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thevirtuoso New user 3 Posts |
I did a show over the weekend. Serious card work (that's what I do).
I finished the show by telling the audience this quote by Robert Houdin. And then I said, "And so to Robert Houdin, I say, "show me a F-in actor that can do that!" |
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Tudormagic New user SC 26 Posts |
Here is a talk on the Robert Houdin quote, that I presented at the Magic and Meaning Conference in Las Vegas, 2015.
https://vimeo.com/186025399/fc9a772beb Watch it and let me know what you think... |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1139 Posts |
I believe the original quote from Houdin is as follows -
Un prestidigitateur n’est point un jongleur ; c’est un acteur jouant un rôle de magicien. For me the crucial point is that he uses two different french words for magician. Therefore a correct English translation should do the same. To use the same word (magician) twice, makes the whole thing seem much more complicated and mysterious than necessary. a conjuror is not at all a juggler; it's an actor playing the role of a magician In this context it's important to understand that a conjuror means someone who does magic tricks; whereas a magician means someone with genuine supernatural powers. The key word however is jongleur (juggler). A juggler is someone who demonstrates his juggling skills (obviously). So Houdin seems to be saying that a conjuror's goal should be to hide his skills rather than make them evident. |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
My problem with the definition is that the performer of the impossible is not always presenting "magic" themed demonstrations. Alchemy, mind-reading, thinking machines, clockworks that can read minds, the amazing levitating effects of ether, etc., etc. I do some things that are supposedly done by magic and pixie-dust, but in the same show, I demonstrate the Teleportation Device. The audience has no problem going from one theme to the other, nor did they in one of Robert-Houdin's shows. Magic is really a demonstration of the impossible, regardless of the theme. To claim the magician is an actor playing the part of a magician is limiting. It should be, in my opinion, "A magician is an actor who presents convincing demonstrations of the impossible."
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
A magician is an actor playing the part of a sorcerer, mind reader, alchemist, scientist, doctor, time-traveler, alien, investigator, etc., etc., who demonstrates impossibilities for his audience.
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
A magician is an actor.
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts |
Well, lots of people are actors. What makes the magician different from actors who aren't magicians? A magician convincingly demonstrates impossibilities. Most actors pretend to do the impossible, magicians seem to actually do it.
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
I think a statement like that cuts you off at the knees, Pop.
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