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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On 2009-01-10 00:07, MagicMichealMan wrote: This is from your first post my friend. You say you did a couple of his gags in a mix with your own. THIS is considered "taking" if you did not get permission. You then ask if it is smart to do this on stage. Answer NO. "Inspired by" is one thing. Heck we all at some point learn by immitation and move on. This is a natural process I think. BUT it is NOT ok to lift even one line without permission. Nothing wrong with seeing another performer and wanting to be like him, in that style, and so forth. Nothing wrong with using published material, although I would submit it makes you a better performer to alter it to suit yourself. Still that is an artistic point, not an ethical one. If a person does use routines that are published word for word this is not wrong. This is a sticky subject because it is a major problem in the magic community. Look at how many performers are doing the "Bowling Ball" production word for word. The snowstorm, oragami, and so forth. It is mind boggling to see sometimes. Yes even using one line, gag or anything of the sort is wrong, without permission. That is why I keep saying "taking".
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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MagicMichealMan Veteran user Vancouver Island, British Columbia 349 Posts |
I meant was it smart to ask, then bring it to the stage, and I was only doing it infront of friends at school.
Ok, thank you for helping, of course it is NOT ok to use something without permission, its like walking through a car lot and deciding to take one for a test drive without asking. even if it was published, I still wouldn't use it word for word, I would change it up to my style. like you said. yes, you are right, it is a sort of a problem and a big thing in magic. but what about,with permission, is that ok? magic mike |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I would still change it to suit my style, but it is certainly ok in my book.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Chipper Lowell Vanish Magazine forum Staff 14 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-10 00:07, MagicMichealMan wrote: an example in my case is I have seen chipper lowell a couple times and really liked him. I was just afraid to even attempt any of his stuff. but not that long ago at school I did a couple of his gags and some of mine in a mixed style and I had my class mates rolling with laughter. I told them all who inspired me to do that stuff. would it be smart to do it on stage? ________ Hi Mike - This is Chipper Lowell. Thank you so much for your kind words and compliments regarding my performances. I just read through the postings here and want to thank ALL THOSE who commented on NOT using other performers' original material. I appreciate the professional responsibility and ethics talked about in this thread. We need more people like you guys! : ) Like my friends, Mac King, Oscar Munoz, Jeff Hobson, A. Johnathan, Caveney, and Carney, we all take great pride in creating our own style, lines and routines. And it is a lot of hard work, blood, sweat and tears sometimes over many, many years. But the rewards are great when it comes to being "original", and we each have individual acts which have taken us all around the world, and provided us with solid careers and income over 20+ years. While I have no issue with someone asking and the performer agreeing to let that person use a joke, line or routine, I do take extreme issue with someone "borrowing" or stealing them outright. You had made a comment that you were only talking about a "small bit or joke", but stealing is stealing. That would be like someone justifying stealing a television set from a home by saying, "It's okay because I didn't ransack the entire house." By the way, just for the record, I have NEVER allowed anyone to use ANY of my material. I still make a good living from it, and those individual jokes, one-liners, gags, routines, and my entire full-evening stage show provide for myself, and my family. Steal an original piece of material from me and you might as well walk into my house and grab anything you'd like. It's just wrong. One could wonder how a "small line or bit" (as you put it) be deemed to not have any value, and yet it is somehow valuable enough to take it and use it? You can't split hairs - Again, stealing is stealing. On a more positive note, the rewards of YOU creating YOUR OWN unique material is MASSIVE. You set yourself apart from the competition. Agents and producers will book you BECAUSE you're ORIGINAL and not a hack. You'll command much better paying gigs. You'll gain respect and be able to hold your head up high. You'll be able to sleep at night. You'll be an "ORIGINAL YOU" - which no one can really, truly duplicate. So why even bother with borrowing or stealing? I sincerely hope you'll take the high road in your magic career, and in even posing your question here on the forum means you're open to possibly going in a more positive direction. By the way, the entertainment industry is actually a pretty small one. Word gets around rather quickly among the professionals as to who is lifting material from who. Others, including myself, have taken proper legal action in the past if it is warranted. Simply put, the best advice I can offer is: Be Yourself. : ) I wish you the BEST of success with your career and look forward to seeing you perform your own unique, original act sometime down the road. Sincerely, Chipper : ) |
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MagicMichealMan Veteran user Vancouver Island, British Columbia 349 Posts |
Wow, chipper lowell, cool!
thank-you very much and I do think I will be taking your advice and being original. You obviously got somewhere by being original, so that means I can too right? Just one question, when you do your joke about how many people have seen a ventrillilliquisstss(or however you spell it) then say you'll do something else, did you invent that? cause I have seen a couple performers do it before and I was wondering if they had stolen it from you? by the way great job in victoria at murrays show, you had me in tears! I sure hope you will be on the show again in the next 5 years, and I hope I can see your show again soon. thanks, magic mike |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I am glad to hear I am not the only one who thinks this way.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Tom Fenton Inner circle Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish) 1477 Posts |
Funny how Mr Lowell gets listened to but the rest of us don't.
"But there isn't a door"
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea I was going to go down that road Tom, but decided against it LOL. He makes the EXACT same point we made with almost the exact same words. I guess we have an accent.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Tom Fenton Inner circle Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish) 1477 Posts |
Danny,
I think you may be right. My Scottish accent is very hard to understand when I type.
"But there isn't a door"
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MagicMichealMan Veteran user Vancouver Island, British Columbia 349 Posts |
No, I could just understand chippers post a little better, you guys were leading me in the right dirrection. Its you guys that kept going on to help me do the right thing...and thank-you for that.
On another note, I was talking to my mentor Stan Kramien the other night. now what he said took me by supprise from right out of the blue! I said that I needed to come up with some original material so that I could be....original. and I said I want to stay away from one liners that might belong to other magicians, and this is what he said "screw em'" now I was schocked, the great stan kramien said that! then he said "how do we know who this stuff belongs to anyways?! every magician I have seen has something that I have seen done 40 years ago!" that came from out of no where, then we continued to talk. thanks, magic mike |
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Tom Fenton Inner circle Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish) 1477 Posts |
Mike,
Have you ever read Whit Haydn's thoughts on "Against Originality in Magic"? Have a look it it, you'll find it here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=117&27 Have a read. Yes, I know that the title seems to against what we've been saying but, trust me, it'll make sense. Tom
"But there isn't a door"
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MagicMichealMan Veteran user Vancouver Island, British Columbia 349 Posts |
Thank-you tom, you have been much help, I will give it a read.
any thoughts on what kramien said? magic mike |
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Tom Fenton Inner circle Leeds, UK (but I'm Scottish) 1477 Posts |
Hi Mike,
In my opinion it doesn't matter what Mr Kramien said. It is up to you to decide. No matter what advice you are given, you have to make the decision. The thing is, with the information, advice and philosophy you have been given here and elsewhere, you can now make an informed decision. Remember, whichever decision you reach, it is YOUR decision. I wish you luck with it. Tom
"But there isn't a door"
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MagicMichealMan Veteran user Vancouver Island, British Columbia 349 Posts |
Yes you are right, Im leaning toward being overall original.
magic mike |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Original is one of those all encompassing terms if you ask me. You are or you are not. "Overall" original?
I think you are headed in the right direction to be candid. I think you are asking questions and learning and this is a great thing which 90% of people your age, heck twice your age, don't bother to do. I think it speaks volumes about you as a person, and will serve you well as a performer.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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MagicMichealMan Veteran user Vancouver Island, British Columbia 349 Posts |
Yeah, its tougher than I thought, but I'll try.
magic mike |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
If it was easy everyone would do it. Easy does not make it good.
You will be just fine I have a feeling.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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GWSchott Veteran user Southeastern Michigan 361 Posts |
I don't see any harm in being influenced by other magicians, just as long as you don't outright copy their material. Let your own style show through, and the patter and handling will change accordingly.
Yours In Magic,
Gordon |
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MagicMichealMan Veteran user Vancouver Island, British Columbia 349 Posts |
Yes, thank-you. I would never outright copy a whole act.
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GWSchott Veteran user Southeastern Michigan 361 Posts |
Try looking at the effect in a vaccuum: Concentrate on the mechanics of what's going on and then use your own imagination to explain it to the audience. If you can do that your own handling will come shining through. Case in point -- When I get a new trick, if it comes with 'suggested patter' I don't even read it.
Yours In Magic,
Gordon |
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