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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2009-01-28 15:07, ladirector wrote: How does logic dictate that? SEY |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2009-01-27 02:58, Connor J. Martin wrote: I absolutely detest it. SEY |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2009-01-17 18:21, Maestro wrote: While some may tell you to learn several, I would not. The reason is that instead of mastering one to perfection, you've spent time learning others that you'll end up not using. Instead, use patience and thoroughly research the good and bad of each deal. Get opinions of people you trust, read about the different bottoms, the work of Gene Maze, Marlo, Turner, etc. Decide how you're going to use the deal. Do you want to do gambling demonstrations, use it in magic or both? Do you want to use it a lot, or just when you need it? Are you willing to change grips between seconds and bottoms? ALL of these things should be considered BEFORE you start experimenting with cards in hand. After you've done this research, THEN pick out two or three bottom deals and start experimenting with them. Eventually you'll pick out which one fits you best. You may want to learn different types of bottom deals after that, but better to do one flawlessly than several adequately. Take a look at Marlo's work in Seconds, Centers and Bottoms. He has something called "The Master Grip" which might interest you. SEY |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
You can master one to perfection, or you can master ten to adequacy. That's generally the choice you have to make. If you're particularly adept, you may be able to master all ten to perfection, but then you end up being a really lousy performer. It's all about decisions and priorities.
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lithyem Veteran user San Diego, CA 306 Posts |
Steven - do you think being that all of our hands are different, looking for a bottom deal (being a particularly tricky move) that fits your hand is a bad idea? I certainly don't mean jack of all bottoms master of none - only that you should familiarize yourself with many and then you can choose one to master. How else would you decide which one felt right in your hands?
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2009-01-28 15:39, lithyem wrote: Hand size should be something you look at when you decide on such things. The problem here is that your definition of "familiarize" and mine are different. If you truly took the advice I posted, it certainly would include finding out which bottoms were best for small hands, which were best for large hands, etc. That would help you reduce the list down to a few, right? My point here is that by doing your homework on a move first, you can save hours and hours of time. SEY |
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lithyem Veteran user San Diego, CA 306 Posts |
Steven - What is my definition of "familiarize" exactly? ...being that our definitions are different and all.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Sorry, I should have worded that better. I meant to say that our definitions COULD be different.
I believe you can familiarize yourself with how much a bottom deal depends on hand size without spending more than 30 minutes with a deck of cards in your hands. It sounded to me like you meant that the only way to determine that is to practice the specific deal for a few hours. If I misunderstood you, then I apologize. SEY |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
I agree, Steven, with the caveat that when someone is fairly new to the craft, he may not have the same sense of engineering as someone else who's been involved in it for some time. To us, it may be obvious how hand size would affect the workings of a move, but to someone just coming in, even though he sees all the same mechanical aspects we do, how they relate to each other may not be obvious. Not only do new people to the craft have a lot to learn as far as what moves are available, what strategies work, what routines are effective, but they also have to learn a new way of thinking about things, such as the relationships between different components and ways to weigh all the factors. Not very many come into the field with this kind of insight. It takes time. So, for a period, people flounder. To how many of your students did you explain how it's better to buckle the bottom card of the deck with an inward diagonal pressure from the forefinger rather than a sideways one? Once you point it out, it's painfully obvious. To someone who hasn't learned to think that way, though...
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lithyem Veteran user San Diego, CA 306 Posts |
Ok fair enough - and agreed. I think we are both in agreement on this one... you can find a bottom deal that you think would work well for you pretty quickly. Only then you have what will probably be quite a while until that is mastered.
Thanks for clarifying like a gentleman - too often ppl get bent out of shape for now good reason here. Ugh - bottom deals. Is there a method that you prefer Steven? I practice a bottom from the mechanics grip with a second finger loosening action... |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
Yes, you're right OT. That's why I think the various false deals should be one of the LAST sleights someone focuses on. That sense of engineering is learned by learning other, more fundamental sleights. Like palming.
SEY P.S. I STILL haven't found a bottom deal I like...many of my "students" are vastly superior to me in the false deals...but I like the Master Grip for Seconds... |
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lithyem Veteran user San Diego, CA 306 Posts |
Yah I'm no authority but I think one could spend his time much more wisely if his goal is entertaining with card magic. it's a move that I practice from time to time - but has little use in the effects that I really enjoy so it's more of a novelty to me.
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
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I STILL haven't found a bottom deal I like... Me, either, but Forte's technique is one of the soundest I've seen, even though I haven't worked it up myself. And yes, false deals are probably best left for later learning. Very good. I like that. |
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salmononius2 New user 97 Posts |
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On 2009-01-28 15:25, Steven Youell wrote: Why do you detest it? |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2009-01-28 16:22, salmononius2 wrote: PM me. SEY |
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Mick Ayres Special user Hilton Head Island 998 Posts |
Steve,
I agree with your list of techniques-to-master for the cardworker. However, none of it matters a whit if one does not work just as seriously at mastering the disciplines of Script-Writing and Performance-Rehearsal. Warm regards, Mick
THE FIVE OBLIGATIONS OF CONJURING: Study. Practice. Script. Rehearse. Perform. Drop one and you're done.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2009-01-28 18:01, Mick Ayres wrote: We're in 100% in agreement here. But the exclusion of that in the post I made does not mean I find it less important. In fact, I might even argue it's MORE important. But that would be the subject of another post. SEY |
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john scot Special user brighton, uk 585 Posts |
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On 2009-01-28 15:25, Steven Youell wrote: Do you just ‘detest’ the books or the author too? I can’t imagine why somebody would hate these great books other than jealousy..? Even Jerry Sadowitz said they were good and he hates everything! |
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todsky Inner circle www.magicstore.ca 2354 Posts |
I'm also curious why Steven 'detests' Card College. It's the first time I've heard such a strong negative opinion about those books.
Todsky's Magic Shop: over 15,000 tricks, books, DVD s and Card decks. www.magicstore.ca
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts |
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On 2009-01-28 19:22, johnscot777 wrote: Yeah, that's it. Jealousy. Right. Unlike you, I can separate what someone does from who they are. I may hate a particular book, but that does not mean I have any ill feelings towards the author. SEY |
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