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bishthemagish
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If I may add to Mickey and Kent Gunn on "experts on riffle culling methods" I wouldn't assume that Jack Pyle (The Punch Deck Pro) or my Dad the late Billy Bishop were not knowledgeable or that they were ill-informed about culling methods.

Jack Pyle was a close friend of Ed Marlo and Ed Marlo wrote a book on block transfer work with the riffle shuffle. And if I may add I have seen some of Jack Pyle's riffle shuffle work. And - that my Dad knew Dai Vernon and sessioned with magicians like Charlie Miller and John Scarne. And I have seen and know most of if not all of my dads riffle shuffle work.

And that brings me to the part that I wanted to talk about in this thread is that work of Karl Fulves and if it is linked in any way to anything that was done by John Scarne.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
splice
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Glenn does stand behind his product and that is honorable. I hope we can reach a satisfactory agreement. I have no desire to return the manuscript or get my money back, but I wish the editing that I criticised would be looked at and kept in mind for future manuscripts.

For what it is it certainly is a definitive source for triumph shuffle work (stacking and culling).
bishthemagish
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Thanks splice.

I have always found your comments about what was wrong with this manuscript/book helpful - Thanks again.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
kentfgunn
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Hi Glenn,

We've got to stop meeting like this!

I enjoyed reading your post about dyslexia. I think it took some real courage to talk about that. I know other magicians beside you who were literally rescued by their love of magic.

I've had to sell off my collection of magic books twice in my life. I had four kids to feed and, well, those books just didn't look that important at the time. I'm old, fat and better off now. I love magic books. I don't have a very large collection. I cheat, I actually try to read them all. I'm glad we share a love of magic books. I think I could get by with just a few of my favorites.

I need to calm down and not be so defensive/aggressive in my posts. I've said this before,

"I think Glenn and I would hit it off in person." I hope the evil tenor of my posts have ruined that chance. We differ on almost nothing of any importance. I revere the memory of Jay Marshall. Your dad was a consummate performer. I know both of these things to be the God's honest truth!


I misinterpreted your first post. I read way too much stuff into your writing. I was astonished to think you wouldn't know who David Ben was. I completely assumed you were familiar with at least the Vernon book, because I know you are such a huge fan of Vernon.

There is no reason for you not to publish your works. I did look at them on your site. Your riffle stuff is beyond my capabilities.

Just wanted to set the record straight.

The barley collage nearly killed me though. I can't tell if you do that stuff to be ironic or it is genuine.
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2009-02-02 14:23, kentfgunn wrote:
I misinterpreted your first post. I read way too much stuff into your writing. I was astonished to think you wouldn't know who David Ben was. I completely assumed you were familiar with at least the Vernon book, because I know you are such a huge fan of Vernon.

I know who David Ben is - however I had no idea that "Mr. Ben" was (David) Ben that they were taling about - it could have been another Ben.
Quote:
On 2009-02-02 14:23, kentfgunn wrote:
There is no reason for you not to publish your works.

At this time I can think of a lots and lots and lots of reason's - why I should not publish any more of my work.

Now can we please talk about the Karl Fulves work and if there is a connection to the work of the late John Scarne?
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
splice
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A member on this site just bought a copy of Fulves' Riffle Shuffle Methods from Martinka. That work has what Mr. Fulves believes is the real method John Scarne employed. I haven't been able to get my hands on it myself. I believe there are references to that work in the Riffle Shuffle Technique series, perhaps.
ladirector
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Scarne used the "Milk Build" with an overhand shuffle for stacking, he had an impressive reputation from doing gambling exposes during the war years, and from his books for the public, and in his later years for doing some insert shots on film for "The Sting," but was not on the skill level of a Marlo or Vernon. I seriously doubt he could deceptively perform more sophisticated methods even if they were attributed to him.
MickeyPainless
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I've seen a clip of Scarne doing what I believe is his "Milk Build" and it looks awesome! I've put in a small amount of work on the sleight and it's a tricky sucker in my hands! Maybe another few years and several thousand shuffles and I'll have a good one!
ladirector
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I didn't mean to give the impression Scarne wasn't skillful, he was, but the overhand shuffle methods are not as technically demanding as the riffle shuffle systems.
MickeyPainless
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I didn't read it that way either! I was simply making my observation on the sleight you mentioned!

Cheers,

Mick
bishthemagish
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I agree splice - I have also heard that there is some mention of John Scarne and his riffle shuffle work in some of the Fulves published material however I have not been able to track it down. From what I have heard - and I might add that this is hearsay - Fulves knew Scarne - and might have learned or adapted or was inspired in some way by John Scarne's riffle shuffle work.

Yes I agree ladirector - Scarne also was great with the jog shuffle culls and stacking methods of his day that were used more often in the 60's and earlier - because the protocol of many gambling places were very different than they are today.

In a conversation about John Scarne I had last year with Jimmy "Cards" Molinari we talked about how John Scarne was the person that "changed" a lot of the protocol in the way that a lot of games were being played in Las Vegas. From what we talked about the use of several decks in Blackjack. Things like that are talked about in the Scarne book "The Odds against me".

However - Just because there is no video of Scarne or published work that Scarne published doing riffle shuffle work (that we have found so far) - in my opinion that is not a good reason to think that Scarne couldn't do it.

I am of the opinion that he could just from what my Dad has told me about his card work. And look at that in the same way as I look at Jack Pyle's riffle shuffle work - and my Dads riffle shuffle work - just because they were not known for it - or never published anything on it (keeping in mind the old school magicians were very secret with their secrets in those days) that doesn't mean that they could not do the work - or at least know about the work.

Magicians in those days did not share secrets as openly as they do today. And riffle shuffle work - stacking and culling was "very" hush - hush card work back then - as it still is today.

And thanks for your input splice on the Scarne - Fulves mystery.

I hope this helps.
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ladirector
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I only met Scarne once, in the 60's, in a session with Vernon and other experts of the day. I was a young man at the time as was my friend, both of us at the time working on the Marlo Riffle Shuffle Systems. My friend, sadly now deceased, practiced hundreds of hours, and was expert at much of this material, (also did a credible center deal and other expert stuff) and fooled and tipped some Marlo stuff to Scarne. That's the reason for my opinion.

I agree, however, that Scarne was very talented at the methods of his day, which can be particularly decpetive since they appear casual and don't look as studied and meticulous as a lot of the riffle work. Also think you are right that modern day games don't allow these casual, impromptu looking, shuffles and cuts due to cousel from men like Scarne.
MickeyPainless
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You sessioned with those guys???????? *Picture me bowing and stating I'M NOT WORTHY*
VERY cool!

Mick
ladirector
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In those pre-Henning days there weren't many young guys into cards, most were more into sex, drugs, rock. I could do some difficult stuff and Vernon was open to sharing with those who had a passion, plus I rode in on the coattails of my friend who was masterful and did the heavy lifting. Perhaps "sessioning" is a bit over the top. I did more watching than contributing, but have some vivid memories of the old days.
Terry Veckey
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Mr.Bishdamagish. Please execute the use of the title "EXPERT" more carefully.
As it is my title and has been for forty years(Harrumph!).

Also, you might recommend me to some of these gentleman and or ladies who are perfect to join a club I founded about 8 years ago for folks of their talent and ilk. (The fee is quite reasonable. Cheque or money order.) The group is called the "Society of Amateur Prestidigitators and Seers". It is perfect for the serious cardician. For only fifty U.S. dollars not only will they become members but I will include 2 "special" decks of cards.They are called "The Ultra-Mental Deck" and the incredible "Don Alan Invisible Deck". I swear with these two decks alone many members of the "Society of Amateur Prestidigitators and Seers" have become Professional Magicians.
-The Lesser Known-
<BR>Terry Veckey
<BR>-"There is no place for laughter in magic." B.Martin-
Terry Veckey
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Drat, I missed the window to edit my last post to keep it more on thread.
I wanted to add that Ottokar Fischer had a very interesting take on the false suffle. Check page 110 in his book "Illustrated Magic"- MacMillan Co., 1949
-The Lesser Known-
<BR>Terry Veckey
<BR>-"There is no place for laughter in magic." B.Martin-
MickeyPainless
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Quote:
On 2009-02-02 19:36, ladirector wrote:
In those pre-Henning days there weren't many young guys into cards, most were more into sex, drugs, rock. I could do some difficult stuff and Vernon was open to sharing with those who had a passion, plus I rode in on the coattails of my friend who was masterful and did the heavy lifting. Perhaps "sessioning" is a bit over the top. I did more watching than contributing, but have some vivid memories of the old days.


I unfortunately was one of those young guys and left my cards in the box for many many years! Just getting to sit in with the masters of the day had to have been an incredible experience in itself! I reckon if you ever even shuffled the cards in front of Vernon and he didn't suggest stamp collecting that would be a hellava compliment! LOL

I'm still more for watching and listening when in the midst of the big boys!

Mick
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2009-02-02 18:52, ladirector wrote:
I only met Scarne once, in the 60's, in a session with Vernon and other experts of the day. I was a young man at the time as was my friend, both of us at the time working on the Marlo Riffle Shuffle Systems. My friend, sadly now deceased, practiced hundreds of hours, and was expert at much of this material, (also did a credible center deal and other expert stuff) and fooled and tipped some Marlo stuff to Scarne. That's the reason for my opinion.

I agree, however, that Scarne was very talented at the methods of his day, which can be particularly decpetive since they appear casual and don't look as studied and meticulous as a lot of the riffle work. Also think you are right that modern day games don't allow these casual, impromptu looking, shuffles and cuts due to cousel from men like Scarne.

Great post ladirector - thanks for your imput to this thread.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2009-02-02 19:36, veckmagic wrote:
Mr.Bishdamagish. Please execute the use of the title "EXPERT" more carefully.
As it is my title and has been for forty years(Harrumph!).

Also, you might recommend me to some of these gentleman and or ladies who are perfect to join a club I founded about 8 years ago for folks of their talent and ilk. (The fee is quite reasonable. Cheque or money order.) The group is called the "Society of Amateur Prestidigitators and Seers". It is perfect for the serious cardician. For only fifty U.S. dollars not only will they become members but I will include 2 "special" decks of cards.They are called "The Ultra-Mental Deck" and the incredible "Don Alan Invisible Deck". I swear with these two decks alone many members of the "Society of Amateur Prestidigitators and Seers" have become Professional Magicians.


Hey - I think it’s Terry Vecky - How have you been Terry? - Who is one of the greatest most entertaining close up magicians that I have had the privilege of seeing work many times.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Terry Veckey
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[/quote]
Hey - I think it’s Terry Vecky - How have you been Terry? - Who is one of the greatest most entertaining close up magicians that I have had the privilege of seeing work many times.
[/quote]
Glenn:
You thunk correctly, almost. It's Terry Veckey after nearly 30 years of telling you there are two E's in Veckey... That kid Malon drops my second E also.

Can't knock your discerning taste in magic though.
To return the compliments. I somehow get the feeling that some folks have no idea just how GOOD you are. Not to mention your knowledge base.
Check your P.M.


More on track, looking over most of this thread, reminded me of something the Professor said at Magic Inc. "Charlie Miller's picture of hell was a bunch of guys in a small room, sitting on barrels, practising Faro Shuffles."
-The Lesser Known-
<BR>Terry Veckey
<BR>-"There is no place for laughter in magic." B.Martin-
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