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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Counts to use as alternatives to or in conjunction with the Flustration Count (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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sohaib
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Here's the thing guys - I love to do routines where you show several cards as the same.
I use the Rumba Count, the Diminishing Lift Sequence, and the Flustration Count. What are some more counts that accomplish the same thing? Your responses are much appreciated.

- Sohaib
MickeyPainless
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There's a count/display on Dorian Rhodell's new "Avenue" DVD that is well worth looking into!

I have been playing with some variations of the Rhumba in hopes of replacing my need for the Flustration!
pepka
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Darn, Mickey beat me to it. The Rhumba count by Vallarino is very cool. Also, check out Boris Wild's Kiss count.
nicd
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Here you go:
http://archive.denisbehr.de/archive/rout......,469,623

Thanks to Denis Behr for his great work on putting together this archive - and letting us use it for free.
Kudos to you my friend!
vinsmagic
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My three personal favorites are Jennings Rhythm count and Lenart Greens
Sweed count and Mirror count
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
Doc Dixon
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Just my two cents (and I'm far from the first to note this): the effectiveness of these counts relates not only to the execution of the count itself, but what happens before the count and what the count is used for.

What I mean is: Is the count being used to confirm something that's already assumed (the cards are the same) or is it used to prove the cards are the same? The former is nearly always better.

With all due respect to the creators involved, some counts of this nature look like a mini juggling show. They fool the eye, but I'm not sure if they fool the mind. I freely admit this opinion is based on my first impressions, not on performing the counts, as I don't have applications for them in my work.

Respectfully,

DD
“For centuries we’ve said playing cards – even a single playing card – could reveal a person’s innermost thoughts.
Now you can prove it!”
See http://www.dixonmagic.com/page5/page5.html
vinsmagic
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What is the reason for sleight of hand? For me, it's to fool the eye, the mind knows it is just a trick.
vinny
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
tobias harmann
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Doc is right. Vin is sooooooo wrong.

Of course, the mind knows it is watching (as a whole) a TRICK. But when a sleight is performed, it should NOT be aware that it is watching a sleight!! This is where you go badly wrong if you think that you can make a sleight look clever enough to fool the eye, while forgetting that that is not your primary goal as a magician. Any old fool can do any number of fancy "sleights" (as he might choose to call them) that look like clever moves - except that that is not good magic... that is just showing off! It is also, completely pointless from the point of view of creating the impression of magic.

The goal of the magician is (in part) to deceive. The battleground for deception is first and foremost in the mind. Physical techniques such as sleights must take their proper place in that framework, and as we all know, the best sleights (in fact, the only ones that are worth consideration by any magician worth his salt) are those that are not in any way apparent to the spectator.

This is so basic, it is embarrassing to point it out. Look up Vernon's writings on this subject, for starters. Or Darwin Ortiz. Or anyone respectable as a performer.
Casey Magic
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I'm a personal fan of the Orion count over the flustration count.
The Amazing Noobini
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There are some good old threads on this that you may want to browse through:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=2 ("How to show 4 cards as 4 identical")

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=2 ("Alternative to Flushtration Count")

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&forum=2 ("Favorite count to show all card is the same")

I'm sure there are more. As I'm lazy I didn't go beyond the first page of search results.

The Orion Count by Yves Doumergue mentioned in all of these threads and by Casey Magic a second ago is the coolest one I have seen so far probably. Although it is certainly very flourishy and unusual.

You could also do a sequence of Mexican Turnovers.

The Swede's Deal that Vinny mentions is also very good in my opinion, although when I do it it looks somewhat obvious, so I don't.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
vinsmagic
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Tobias,First and formost I was speaking of a false count. not fancy slights to p[rove how good one is. the hand fools the eye this is all I am saying.
I am sorry if I embarresed you,Please do not insult me by name droppingi have seen and talked to many of the greats in magic.
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
tobias harmann
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Vin - sorry you feel insulted, but I agree with Doc that one often sees so-called "false counts" displayed by magicians because the magician thinks it looks clever or skillful. They may fool the eye (as you say) but they do not fool the mind (which just thinks "that looks fishy/nerdy/stupid/pointless/showy/crap/dumb") - and therefore the use of a false count in that way is bad magic. The reason for sleight of hand is not (as you say) to fool the eye. It is to accomplish something secretly and invisibly so as to enable the mind to be fooled. There is a difference, and the "greats" (and those who have truly learnt from them) know it Smile
Lawrence O
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In 1991, I finished writing an entire book on counts based on the following premisses:

- The deck must only move from left hand dealing grip to right hand Biddle grip and back
- All the counts must look exactly the same
- No angle (meaning no thumb break and no side jog)

The book unfortunately is in French (Le Dragon Appprivoisé) and one third of it is devoted to misdirection in card counts (which are generally card displays rather than counts)

The possibilities with four cards are enormous: the performer may want to simply conceal one or two cards but he may want to display the faces and the backs in one single count and hide the back of a different card than the one of the hidden face card...

Vinny has some of these counts in English and if you buy some of his videos, he might offer you what you need as a gesture (I granted him permission on the ones he already has and I would translate some more for him if he needs it).

Isn't the café about magicians helping magicians?
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
tobias harmann
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One effective way to help on this forum is to highlight some of the childish and ridiculous notions that exist about performance magic. You can come up with hundreds of different false count techniques, adhering to as many physical rules as you like, but you can bet that many magicians here are gonna use them as tools to show off, rather than as options (some better than others) to consider in the art of deception. Vinny seems annoyed at my pointing this out. However, the irony is that the real greats in magic (or in life) are marked by their willingness to learn, rather than their desire to show how much (or who!) they think they know Smile
vinsmagic
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Tobias I am always willing to learn and be corrected by my peers, I am neither Vernon, Marlo, Ortiz. I am myself, and I am not a clone of anyone. Tobias you do not know me, and do not have the right to say I am an embarrassment. My count that is very similar to the Elmsley, and Olram, that utilizes a table. I find this count superior to the Elmsley count, because there is no shifting of the cards (more natural).
And your eyes will be fooled, and as you say, so will your mind.
If you want to see this in action, PM me, and I will send a demo with the handling.
Remember we all have our opinions, some good, some not so good, but they are only opinions.
vinny


Entienne sent me his version of the Hamman count. In Etienne's eyes, my handling of the Hamman was not that good. Following Etiennes advice, I have improved my count, and will send him demo using his technique .
So, I do have a willingness to learn no matter what my age is, this is what magic is all about, magicians helping each other, not putting one down...becaues of the book skills are not up to par.
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
tobias harmann
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S'all good.
vinsmagic
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Thank you all is well
vinny
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
sohaib
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Vinny, where can I see and learn the Sweed Count?
Lawrence O
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With your blue Sweed shoes, the only ones that count!



Quote:
On 2009-01-30 11:28, tobias harmann wrote:
Doc is right. Vin is sooooooo wrong.

Of course, the mind knows it is watching (as a whole) a trick. But when a sleight is performed, it should not be aware that it is watching a sleight!! This is where you go badly wrong if you think that you can make a sleight look clever enough to fool the eye, while forgetting that that is not your primary goal as a magician. Any old fool can do any number of fancy "sleights" (as he might choose to call them) that look like clever moves - except that that is not good magic... that is just showing off! It is also, completely pointless from the point of view of creating the impression of magic.

The goal of the magician is (in part) to deceive. The battleground for deception is first and foremost in the mind. Physical techniques such as sleights must take their proper place in that framework, and as we all know, the best sleights (in fact, the only ones that are worth consideration by any magician worth his salt) are those that are not in any way apparent to the spectator.

This is so basic, it is embarrassing to point it out. Look up Vernon's writings on this subject, for starters. Or Darwin Ortiz. Or anyone respectable as a performer.

Tobias

I share your point of view on deception. Is there a need because we disagree with him to offend Vinny with personal attacks and qualifying him? I certainly disagree on that.

Attention works at the same time on three levels
One level is very emotional and come from the perception of the show
One level attempts to follow the cause to effect relationship it's essentially logical
one level observes movements to be able to mentally testify: it's mainly visual (and a bit auditive, sometimes tactile like with spongeballs)

Thus even if we are right, it doesn't mean that Vinny would be wrong and if you have the class that the quality of your thinking expects to demonstrate, you may even consider apologizing for the personal side steps against him.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Sword of the Soldier
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Lawrence O,

Have you considered translating your books into English and having them published in the states? I think they would so very well amongst the English speaking magic community.

Josh
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