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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Daegs' post echoes the reason I mentioned earlier that the routine started as an ace assembly without the cover cards, but in execution it actually more resembles a coins across. I'm not as concerned about this distinction, though, as I am with the suggestion that it's a Cards Up The Sleeve routine or a series of packet-to-packet transportations. Neither of those make any sense to me.
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-02-02 02:49, Ben Train wrote: Ben I see your point and I've been reading your posts for quite a while. You're a smart, thoughtful and knowledgeable man. The problem is in the premises which set the classifications and therefore the conclusion. For you the destination is part of what defines the classification. If aces meet with one another it is an ace assembly and actually, on a pure historical point of view, you might be right (IMHO) on the origin of the effect. Now open your mind: Jonathan premises for classification seem to be on the notion of travelers (a magical movement that the audience cannot see). The departure and destination is totally irrelevant in his classification. The cards could progressively travel under a glass, in one or four different pockets, through the table, behind the window... coming from the deck or from the palm... One may argue that Harry Lorayne excellent card through the table effect is a solid through solid effect and not a travelers effect. In fact there is only an obstacle half way through the travel. My point is that as long as classifications look forward they are liable to enrich an effect. As soon as they look backwards they limit themselves to the premises that one of us did when setting the classification. Let's remain modest and try and find out what other angles (different premises) by different personalities brings to an effect rather than try and defend chapels. Jonathan is pretty knowledgeable as well so let's enrich our thinking by letting him develop the whats and whys of his point rather than block it in sterile (I think) debates. There are two entries in a spreadsheet (and many more in the human spirit) Let's move on positively...
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
Daegs,
You've changed the structure, the props, and the method. Obviously it's now a different effect. An argument could be made for the coins across analogy, but only if we change the structure: Show three cards in left hand. Show empty hand, place on top of leader ace. Magic causal action- show two and two. If we change structure, method, and presentation, then yes- it might be something else. As it stands though it's an assembly. I need to sleep now, it's 4 am. Ben
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Sleep tight, We like you with a fresh mind.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Lawrence,
When you say "travelers" and Ben says, "Travelers," you're saying two different things. Ben speaks of the "Travelers" plot, which was introduced by Vernon in The Stars of Magic, where four signed cards that are lost in the deck leave and are produced from four different pockets. This is what Ben can't equate to the Open Travelers plot, because nothing goes to any pocket, much the same reason he can't equate the Open Travelers plot to Cards Up The Sleeve. Jon wants to say that Open Travelers is like Cards Up The Sleeve because the cards leave from a packet...never mind that the cards don't really leave from a packet and never mind that that they don't go to a pocket, as in Cards Up The Sleeve. In other words, Jon sees a similarity that Ben and I do not. When you say "travelers," you're obviously speaking of ANY translocation of a card or cards. You're in a different conversation. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Open Traveller
You're absolutely right. You are saying (in better words) what I tried and explain in my Post of Feb 2, 2009 3:35am Furthermore I realized that we missed a few major references: Nash, Martin: Master Card Magician Vol. 2 (in a series of 6 videos) King’s incognito: This act is based primarily on magic, not gambling and starts with a Triumph effect, including a production of four Kings which change to Aces! Then Martin presents his version of Open Travelers. Next comes a performance of a MacDonald's Aces without gimmicks, where the magic takes place in the spectator's hand. This act underlines how Nash sells every trick, especially a "Lost Card" effect. The climax is Limited Ambitions, a small packet ambitious card routine that is indeed a thing of beauty. A well designed card act: Regal, David: Close-up and Personal & Regal, David - Volume 3 - Enough with the Tricks Already! DVD Commercial Travel Vincent, Michael: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD38r0DYZl4&NR=1 A very interesting script with lively gestures and hand movements, an original way of presenting the tent vanish vertically before presenting it horizontally, a feint (the dropping card) which prevents the effect from being repetitive. Not the slightest bit of arrogance and Michael’s irresistible smile which wins him any audience over. The main value of Michael’s routine however is that he is having fun together with his audience. I'll look again at some versions and reissue a proper list. Maybe we should do it in the Secret Sessions to be able to speak about technical approach?
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Most coins across routines don't have you carefully gesturing as if taking a coin, making it invisible, placing it on the table and then making it visible again.
Most ace assemblys don't have you openly collecting the non-leader aces back into a packet in your hands after you lay them down. I like the "Invisible Palm" illustration from the Paul Harris book. Many here can recall Derek Dingle pretending to have the card hidden inside a finger as he played with the audience between taking the card and putting it on the table.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-02-02 07:07, Jonathan Townsend wrote: This is true, Jon, but forsaking the actual gestures, in the Open Travelers plot the cards travel in much the same way as they would have were they in an assembly plot or in a coins across plot. They don't travel the same way as in a Cards Up The Sleeve Plot, which is to say, to a pocket, because that's a defining feature of the plot. Perhaps instead of saying it feels more like a Cards Up The Sleeve plot to you, which it clearly isn't, you could have just said you like the element of Cards Up The Sleeve where the cards travel up the arm, across the body, etc., and arrive at their destination. Then we could have addressed that directly and avoided the last four exchanges of posts. Now, in this exploration, you may actually arrive at something pretty good. So, go for it. I personally disfavor the idea because I still feel that adding the element of having the card take a circuitous route to its destination wouldn't make the Open Travelers clearer or more effective. I think it would water down the effectiveness of the card disappearing and reappearing, because it's more to think about, more points of suspicion to address and more to follow without enough of an offsetting benefit. To my mind, it would be like adding the gag, "The card leaves my hand (show it empty), flies all around the room, bounces off that corner, stops for a small bite of that gentleman's steak over there and arrives right on your chair, under your seat." Then when the person starts to get up to look, say, "...but it didn't stop THERE..." In some situations, this would be a fairly funny gag. But not in this trick. Not this time. The effect is so clear and strong that this gag would water it down and inhibit its power. I think the travel around the body would do the same thing. |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
I'm back, and with a fresh (though not fully functional) brain!
First, Lawrence, thank you for the kind words. I'm blushing! Second, there are some very interesting points on this thread, and I will concede that there are different ways to classify things. Historically the effect of Open Travelers (The trick, not the member posting above me!) is an ace assembly. It was designed as such and has functioned as such. From a presentational, of course, you are only limited to the powers of your imagination. One caveat though- some presentations are going to be a) more effective and b) more logical then others. All the best, Ben "why am I reading the Café when I have Keats in front of me?" Train
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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ajb6864 Special user Greece 637 Posts |
Ben,
"Philosophy will clip an angel's wings". Alan |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
@ Open Traveller
Do you really mean a gag or do you mean a feint as in Michael Vincent's routine when the palmed card unwillingly(!) falls from its palmed position? The reference of Michael's routine was posted above.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Lawrence,
In the example I gave, I meant a gag. A gag at the wrong moment doesn't help an effect, even if it gets a nice laugh. A gag at the wrong time dilutes the impact of an effect. I find the Open Travelers to be a very, very direct effect, and it's very clear to the audience what is happening, although not why or how. You take a card in your hand. The audience believes it's there. Then you turn your hand over, and the card isn't there. The audience has absolutely NO trouble understanding that the card is not where they thought it was. Then you lower your empty hand to the table, and when you lift it, the card that was there is back again. Once more, this requires no explanation for the audience to "get it." Adding presentational reasons as to why this is happening doesn't improve the trick or give it more meaning. In very direct effects such as this, you can talk as much as you'd like to keep things moving, but you say as little as possible. You avoid giving them other things to think about, details that don't make anything any clearer (and how could it be any clearer than that empty hand or that card on the table?). It's the same with the Ambitious Card. Talk as much as you need to maintain the conversational tone, but don't SAY anything. Extra details, presentational points, etc., don't make the trick any better. And if they don't add, they detract. I think the premise of having a card travel up your arm, across your chest, down the side and into the pocket is great for the Cards Up The Sleeve. We need to keep in mind, though, that it only really makes sense as a premise if we pull at least one card from the shoulder or the elbow, saying that it got stuck on the way. If we leave this part out, the presentational premise doesn't really have a home anymore as far as the effect is concerned and it becomes superfluous. If we don't include one or more cards from the shoulder or elbow, the effect no longer needs the premise and would actually be better without it. The Open Travelers is NOT in need of this premise. I think feints are fine in their proper place. When they serve to add conviction, when they serve to establish something, when they serve to misdirect from something...these are all fine uses. Feints can be used in the Open Travelers as long as they don't make a direct effect less direct. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Here are the exact reference in print (as opposed to DVD) for David Regal's routine
Regal, David: Close-up and Personal 1999 by Hermetic Press, Inc. p 10 Commercial Travel.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Open, it is out gestures and actions which bring the effect to our audiences.
Imagine for a moment that you were using real magic and go through the gestures of the Open Travelers/Invisible Palm trick. That's an exercise folks - get out four cards and do it a few times till you have a feel for what you'd want the trick to be. Okay - notice the lack of intermediary fussing and proving moves? Notice where you put the card down and how you made it visible. That's the trick. What's missing for you at the moment is probably just a method. That just takes a little more research but I'm sure you can find something that gets you to what you mimed doing before. I went for the "making the card invisible" approach when doing that trick. But more importantly I also had to find some sort of justification for any extra fussing or displays which got stuck in between the magical phases. Remember if you are using magic you have nothing to prove and if they trust your character they won't usually go looking for you to prove things. Then again if you want them to tunnel in on your hands you will likely need a few feints as once they learn to look for cards in your hands they may well catch you later or worse - someone else doing a card trick.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Yet another young man came with different ways of pantomiming some of the moves. Rather than criticizing the routine as a whole with the restrictions I may personally feel about the routine, I chose to look at the gestures, original with this magician in a positive way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ormWpQpIZY&NR=1 Check the unusual backwards move that he is using for reproducing the "arriving" ace. It may not be advisable to do it on each ace, but it would possibly be an interesting one after using (again possibly) Michael Vincent's feint of the ace invisibly palmed accidentally falling from the palm. There is also an idea to rework in his last ace traveling. I agree with Jonathan (not really a rare occurrence) that a good number of the movements used by silent magicians at the beginning of their routine are a kind of unnecessary ballets to over-prove that there is only four aces: a quick light handling of the tabled cards is perfectly sufficient and the script shouldn't refer to the number of cards but to the plot. "Don't run when nobody is chasing you". On a pure logical basis, what is the reason for the first card to be tabled initially. Announcing the plot by expressing that some people (cheats, magicians according to your script) palm cards to... (why is a palmed card placed aside? There is, in my opinion, a need for some form of justification) Patter can explain that some guys keep cards aside to use them at the proper moment and that slowly hand after hand they build a winning hand... Naturally there are other alternatives but we all should explain why this (double) card is placed there. Personally I would argue (only once though) with every comment explaining that this is what the trick is about. The purpose of an effect is no sufficient reason to replace the rigorous human need for every single move to be logically justified in an unbroken sequence. In my view, the purpose of Open Travellers is not to show that we are great guys who can palm cards invisibly straight into the spectators' faces: this is the plot. Confusing the plot with the purpose often drives performers into narcissism: the purpose actually is the story and we have a lot of creative freedom there. Good magic is not there to directly flatter the magician's ego: a successful entertaining routine with a meaningful story supplies this result after the routine. It is not supposed to do it during the routine. During the routine, it's not our time, it's the audience time. Normally we get our kick as we invent, adapt, practice, polish, alter and then, after the trick, when we know without complacency that the audience had a great time.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Lyle I appologize for saying your last vanish on Open travlers was a film edit....
this is what happens when we jump to fast an do not have all the facts great thinking on your part vinny |
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walid ahumada Special user sinaloa, mexico 892 Posts |
I would like to quote Darwin Ortiz, even if I do not completly agree with his statment, however I believe a lot of magicians over work the classics.
"Larry Jennings’ Open Travelers is a particularly good example of a perfect trick that people insist on messing with, always to the effect’s detriment." you can read all the topic in here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=87&5
“Magic becomes art when it has nothing to hide.” BEN OKRI quote
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ladirector Regular user 128 Posts |
I agree, Larry's method is still the very best. Most other versions the cards come together between the disappearances and appearances which ruins the effect. The economy of sleights is perfect. Sometimes, however, angles will cause me to eliminate the Tent Vanish, otherwise I do it just like Larry.
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ajb6864 Special user Greece 637 Posts |
I've been reluctant to join this conversation as I love and hate this routine in equal measures!
I think that this one routine can be all of the things mentioned previously. It can be the ultimate test of a magician's skill, both technically and presentationally if it works, but more often than not, it highlights the weaknesses of either or both. That is why the routine is polarises our views, but also often allows it to be dismissed as 'magic for magicians'. Unfortunately, I don't have any panacea, but I feel the effect will be a 'litmus test' for performers for some time to come. |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-02-03 16:17, walid ahumada wrote: Even if both René and Darwin are long time friends whose opinion I respect, I still don't agree with them. I think Alan is rightfully underlining how unforgiving the effect might be both on the technical level and the preeentational level. Larry's entertaining gestures and presentational twists are no match for Michael Vincent's or David Houchin take on the effect. His technique is no match (in this effect) to Bernard Bilis or Daniel Smith or ... the young gifted guys (but they are IMHO huge sinner in the presentational field (totally inverted) The reason why I disagree with Darwin (probably the best expert on Trick designs) is that I think the packet switch half way through is a really noticeable discrepency. The fact that audiences don't write us letter of insults doesn't mean much. I have no consideration with the "it works for me" stated in a conversation about getting nearer to excellence. Chris Lyle idea to vanish the last card without a tent vanish is an "effect improvement" (let's not be distracted here on the technical way to show this). My understanding is the same as Bernard Bilis and I think that ending with a card switch is not an improvement. I believe that this is what Darwin and René had in mind when they stated that the trick could not be improved. But the use of the Tenkai palm to avoid the switch is an improvement. Having a script justifying why a card is placed aside in the first place is an improvement. Having the last card vanishing right there by lapping or any other mean is an improvement. Walid you have worked, amongst other things, a Cups and Balls routine to a very high level of perfection: does it means that Dai Vernon's routine could not keep on progressing? Naturally no! You proved it yourself? What's wrong with reconsidering Larry Jennings who did a lot of good for the effect and follow the track he launched on both presentational and technique (to follow Alan's sharp analytical eye) Magic like life is a constant improvement. Sorry friends if I'm too reactive against the defense of chapels. My logic follows the same track as Jonathan: what would it look like if done by real magic?
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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