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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricks & Effects » » Coinvexed 2 Sharpie Edition Review- (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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lunatik
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Thank you Jim for clarifying that he did in fact send you the patent numbers but that you were unable to find them. As to why you were unable to find them? I'll be honest, I haven't attempted to look for them and I can only assume the format wasn't entered in correctly? I'll assume that you did your best to locate the patents. As to why he hasn't provided a direct link? He has limited internet and I do not believe he's been online since the last email he sent you. He said last night that he'll be getting online soon to address this.

Also, I didn't say you were lying through your teeth, I said "IF". There's a difference. At anyrate, you're posts in this thread have defintely have been insinuating that John is a liar and does not have any patents pending. Him not responding in a timely manner doesn't mean that he's not been forthcoming. In fact, you haven't been forthcoming to the people reading this thread until today. Now things are starting to come together and we'll awaite for a response by John. Next time, please give everyone the whole picture instead of a small slice.
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Jaz2005
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There are a couple of threads on the café regarding Coinvexed 2. and here are a couple of posts from members on this thread
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&start=0 which may help to get things in perspective

Quote:
On 2009-01-27 10:19, Rupert Bair wrote:
This is Brilliant - very well made and extremely deceptive and practical addition to the original! Really is, had the pleasure at playing around with it last week, go get one when its out, you'll love it; sorry I can't say any more as its not my place to, but if you own and love coinvexed this takes it up an even higher level. Please don't pm for any more information, you'll have to wait for the release.
Best.
R.B/M.C


Quote:
On 2009-01-21 22:11, Al Straker wrote:
Yes it is a Sharpie gimmick but not the same as Quantum Bender by Sheets.
I have been fortunate enough to be using a prototype for a few months, very nice way to deceptively put 'work' into a coin. The actions are natural and I would say it is one of the least 'fiddley' devices available. Gimmick will never wear out.
Cheers,
Al


Best regards
Jim
Jaz2005
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Quote:
On 2009-02-04 21:08, Doug Lippert wrote:
We still haven't seen these e-mails between Jim and John. There really isn't any need to fling mud. Coinvexed 2 may even use a different method.

Best,

Doug L.


Doug thanks for your Karma Smile
Best regards
Jim
Jaz2005
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Quote:
On 2009-02-05 06:14, lunatik wrote:
Thank you Jim for clarifying that he did in fact send you the patent numbers but that you were unable to find them. As to why you were unable to find them? I'll be honest, I haven't attempted to look for them and I can only assume the format wasn't entered in correctly? I'll assume that you did your best to locate the patents. As to why he hasn't provided a direct link? He has limited internet and I do not believe he's been online since the last email he sent you. He said last night that he'll be getting online soon to address this.

Also, I didn't say you were lying through your teeth, I said "IF". There's a difference. At anyrate, you're posts in this thread have defintely have been insinuating that John is a liar and does not have any patents pending. Him not responding in a timely manner doesn't mean that he's not been forthcoming. In fact, you haven't been forthcoming to the people reading this thread until today. Now things are starting to come together and we'll awaite for a response by John. Next time, please give everyone the whole picture instead of a small slice.


Richard,
I a have no obligation to provide you or anyone else with details of confidential emails. When you state that "I have not been forthcoming", to what are you referring???? We have been open and honest and answered all questions where we were able to without divulging confidential information.

You also know what they say about assume, it makes an a** out of you and me.

How can you assume that the searches were not carried out correctly.
Our Patent Attorneys carried out these searches 2 years ago and then again last year. They found no relevant conflict or infringement regarding either of our releases of Coinvexed.

We were then contacted again by John both by PM and email. The information from the emails is detailed above.
Yes, John claims to have a Patenet Pending and yes neither us nor our Patent Attorneys have found any trace of it even using the further information supplied by John.

We are within our lawful rights to demand to see this information.
Perhaps you should use the information provided by John in the above email and see if you have any luck. If you do, please let me know.
That aside, there is no conflict between the items subject of this ping pong match so perhaps we should let this branch of the thread rest.

Best regards
Jim
lunatik
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I think these emails should have been sent at the conception of the creation of Coinvexed 2. But it's possible that they were and I'm just unaware. I believe David Penn has a QB2 which should give all parties an idea of what they're working with, but if CV2 is really close in functionality, then I can see why the request for the pending patents. But if these were the only emails that were requesting the patent numbers, I think it's a little be late as CV2 is about to be released to the world. Best of luck to everyone involved
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Jaz2005
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Quote:
On 2009-02-05 06:53, lunatik wrote:
I think these emails should have been sent at the conception of the creation of Coinvexed 2. But it's possible that they were and I'm just unaware. I believe David Penn has a QB2 which should give all parties an idea of what they're working with, but if CV2 is really close in functionality, then I can see why the request for the pending patents. But if these were the only emails that were requesting the patent numbers, I think it's a little be late as CV2 is about to be released to the world. Best of luck to everyone involved


Richard,
It seems that you are just not getting it.
We had no obligation to contact John at any point.
We employ professionals to research our products and if we feel that we might be close to stepping on someones toes then at that point, we would either abandon the project or contact the person and try to work something out.

The huge financial commitment to go to prototype and then production on an item like this warrants detailed research and we carried out that research.

We had no need to contact John Sheets. We immediately responded to his emails and PM's to us and we then immediately responded to your totally incorrect assumptions on this and the other thread.
As I said previously, we could go on with this Ping Pong match for ever but I think you should let it rest and just wait until the release. THis is supposed to be a review thread.

best regards
Jim
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Will it be possible to pre-order coin-vexed 2 and then pick it up at the blackpool convention?Im not going to the convention untill the sunday and I would hate to find out that coin-vexed 2 is sold out.

Thanks Alot
Dan
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Jaz2005
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Quote:
On 2009-02-05 07:08, danielellis_5 wrote:
Will it be possible to pre-order coin-vexed 2 and then pick it up at the blackpool convention?Im not going to the convention untill the sunday and I would hate to find out that coin-vexed 2 is sold out.

Thanks Alot
Dan


Just PM'd you details Daniel

Best regards
Jim
Caliban
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Jim

I'm finding it hard to see the relevance of all this patent talk. Surely you're not claiming that it would be okay to rip off the Quantum Bender if John can't prove he has a patent pending? Magic is a small cottage industry where very few products are protected by patents. Instead, the magic world has a well established rule that ethical dealers do not rip off the products of others. So whether or not John Sheet's patent pending actually exists makes absolutely no difference one way or another.

And lets be honest, anyone who is well connected in magic can easily find out what a Quantum Bender is and how it works. If you didn't know already you would have easily been able to find out by ringing round a few contacts. So we can safely assume that you already know exactly what John's gimmick is, and that yours is different or you wouldn't be putting it out.

Coinvexed 2 is likely to cause some controversy: Some people will argue that because the Quantum Bender is an established coin bender disguised as a Sharpie, it's a rip off for another dealer to release their own coin bender disguised as a Sharpie, even if the methods are different. Other people will argue that, as the method is completely different there's no problem. There's no definite right or wrong on that one - it's just going to come down personal opinions.

To me, this appears to be a bit of a distraction tactic. You know that you're in a bit of an ethical grey area in releasing a coin bender disguised as a Sharpie when one is already on the market, and you know that some people (especially those with a competing product) might criticize you for it ... but if you can lead people to accuse you of ripping off the Quantum Bender before it's released and have those people proved wrong when yours turns out to be a completely different method ... then you appear to have won the argument and it steers people away from the real question, which is whether it's ethical for another dealer to market a Sharpie coin bending gimmick at all.

Or something like that.

I'm not suggesting that it IS unethical for someone else to release a different Sharpie coin bending gimmick - you could make a valid case for either side of the argument - but that debate is the real issue. All this talk of patents just comes across as misdirection.
Jon Allen
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I think part of the problem here is the vast majority have not seen the gimmick (me included). People who know about QB and the way it works are possibly wondering how different a gimmick something can be when:

1. It needs to bend a coin
2. It needs to be disguised as a Sharpie
3. It has Coinvexed in, knowing how that works.

Once Coinvexed 2 is released, people will know for sure of the similarities....or otherwise. Until then, everything is speculation.
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kissdadookie
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Personally, I feel that Jim was just a bit "loose" with his wording thus blowing this whole thing out of proportion. There may not have been any ill intention but it felt like it because of how it was originally worded.
GarySumpter
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I am looking forward to seeing this at Blackpool Smile

Gary
Jaz2005
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Quote:
On 2009-02-05 15:06, Caliban wrote:
Jim

I'm finding it hard to see the relevance of all this patent talk. Surely you're not claiming that it would be okay to rip off the Quantum Bender if John can't prove he has a patent pending? Magic is a small cottage industry where very few products are protected by patents. Instead, the magic world has a well established rule that ethical dealers do not rip off the products of others. So whether or not John Sheet's patent pending actually exists makes absolutely no difference one way or another.

And lets be honest, anyone who is well connected in magic can easily find out what a Quantum Bender is and how it works. If you didn't know already you would have easily been able to find out by ringing round a few contacts. So we can safely assume that you already know exactly what John's gimmick is, and that yours is different or you wouldn't be putting it out.

Coinvexed 2 is likely to cause some controversy: Some people will argue that because the Quantum Bender is an established coin bender disguised as a Sharpie, it's a rip off for another dealer to release their own coin bender disguised as a Sharpie, even if the methods are different. Other people will argue that, as the method is completely different there's no problem. There's no definite right or wrong on that one - it's just going to come down personal opinions.

To me, this appears to be a bit of a distraction tactic. You know that you're in a bit of an ethical grey area in releasing a coin bender disguised as a Sharpie when one is already on the market, and you know that some people (especially those with a competing product) might criticize you for it ... but if you can lead people to accuse you of ripping off the Quantum Bender before it's released and have those people proved wrong when yours turns out to be a completely different method ... then you appear to have won the argument and it steers people away from the real question, which is whether it's ethical for another dealer to market a Sharpie coin bending gimmick at all.

Or something like that.

I'm not suggesting that it IS unethical for someone else to release a different Sharpie coin bending gimmick - you could make a valid case for either side of the argument - but that debate is the real issue. All this talk of patents just comes across as misdirection.


Caliban,
Seems to me you don't get it either,

We are not worried about the Patent. We are an ethical producer and for that reason alone we would not infringe on another creators product.

The whole Patent thing was raised by John Sheets as you will see from the emails above and in PM's to David Penn and myself. John used the fact that he had a Patent Pending to demand a copy of our Product. That is just not going to happen. However as John brought up his Patent, we felt it only right that having brought it up, he should follow that up with the public record information.

I merely passed his concerns on in this forum as advice to RichB
.
Then a few posters without any knowledge of either our gimmick or the background, such as yourself, chip in with comments that make no sense to me. They make assumptions in public without any knowledge, they assume that we are ripping off another creator, and then suggest that we are lying through our teeth.
None of this is true and therefore, as I stated earlier this string of conversation within the thread should be left alone before a few people end up with egg on their faces.

The people who have had the gimmick have already posted comments but all of you knockers just seem to ignore this. Are they Lying through their teeth as well????.

Wait for the release then post your apology. Smile
Best regards
Jim
lunatik
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I look forward to its release! will it be out this month or possibly March?
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Caliban
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Quote:
On 2009-02-05 17:41, Jaz2005 wrote:
Wait for the release then post your apology. Smile
Best regards
Jim


It's extremely unlikely that I'll have anything to apologise for.

My post clearly says that I expect your gimmick to have a different method - so I haven't accused you off ripping off the Quantum Bender. And I was the first to post in your defence when you were wrongly accused of misleading advertising over the David Blaine claim on Hank Lee's site.

I did say is that there's an ethical grey area in releasing a coin bender disguised as a Sharpie when there is already one on the market - even if it has a different method. That's true. Some people will criticize it and others will defend it.

So I'm not sure what you think I'm going to have to apologise for when your product is released. My comments were based purely on the fact that your gimmick is a Sharpie coin bender - and my source for that information was your own promotional posts.
Jaz2005
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Quote:
On 2009-02-05 19:20, Caliban wrote:

My comments were based purely on the fact that your gimmick is a Sharpie coin bender - and my source for that information was your own promotional posts.

I was the first to post in your defence when you were wrongly accused of misleading advertising over the David Blaine claim on Hank Lee's site.



Hi again Caliban.
Item #1 in the quote above where, in any promotional posts have we or I or anyone associated with this product claimed that our gimmick is a Sharpie Coin Bender as claimed by you?. Soley in your imagination me thinks.

Our sole claim is that the new Coinvexed is the Sharpie Edition.

We have also stated several times that apart from the reviewers and testers worlwide who have had the product, that we will be making a full disclosure at the launch in Blackpool and not before.

David Penn will discuss it in full during both of his lectures at Blackpool and also on the stand. At that point everyone who wants to know what it is before puchasing one will get to know what it is. This is extremely unusual as normally you would have to purchase an item before you find out exactly what it is.

Item #2 Thanks for that.

So guys until the launch let's just leave the speculation and accusations on the shelf please.

Best Regards
Jim
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Quote:
On 2009-02-05 18:02, lunatik wrote:
I look forward to its release! will it be out this month or possibly March?

Hi Richard,
It will be out February 20th at Blackpool in the UK and with Murphys Magic Supplies in the U.S. week ending February 28th and at your dealers shortly after that..
Caliban
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Hi Jim

Quote:
On 2009-02-05 20:00, Jaz2005 wrote:
Item #1 in the quote above where, in any promotional posts have we or I or anyone associated with this product claimed that our gimmick is a Sharpie Coin Bender as claimed by you?.


I was going from the Al Straker post that you quoted earlier in this thread.

On 2009-01-21 22:11, Al Straker wrote:
Yes it is a Sharpie gimmick ...

I do accept, though, that there would be a big difference between a single piece gimmick that's built into a Sharpie - and a gimmick that merely involves a Sharpie or has a Sharpie as part of it.
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Quote:
On 2009-02-06 03:42, Caliban wrote:
Hi Jim

I was going from the Al Straker post that you quoted earlier in this thread.

On 2009-01-21 22:11, Al Straker wrote:
Yes it is a Sharpie gimmick ...

I do accept, though, that there would be a big difference between a single piece gimmick that's built into a Sharpie - and a gimmick that merely involves a Sharpie or has a Sharpie as part of it.

Caliban,
AHHHH HAAAA Smile Now I am going to plead the fifth.

Have a good weekend.
Off to make a snowman now in Scotland

Best regards
Jim
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A interesting story. I had purchased Coinvexed and thought it could be so much better. I had a brilliant idea and designed a solution to my handling problems. I contacted David Penn with my idea and found out he had thought of it as well and had produced prototypes. They sent me one to evaluate so I have seen it and I will say this.
1) It does not resemble in any way the method used by QB 2 - which I own.
2) If this would have been the original design I would have never bought the QB 2.
IMHO this is a great change to the design. It is different in design and handling from QB 2. It will offer additional flexibility to your routines.
I don't want to say anything else until it is released.

Tom Paxton
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