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Darren Altman
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On 2009-02-03 18:47, mindpunisher wrote:
I guess Anthony I just don't see it. I just think stage hypnosis should be a real show...With all the proper tricks of the trade in place to play with the perceptions of the audience.

It reminds me of a comparison with art. Put a piece of art on the pavement with a cap and you'll get a few coins. And no one will really value the art or the artist.

Put the same piece of art in a prestigeous gallery and all of a sudden it has many many more times percieved value. It makes more for the artist and somehow gives a more intense and valuable experience for the audience.

I believe true hypnotists take advantage of everything to create the experience for the audience. As well as extract as much value personally from the art.

that's why I think street hypnosis will always devalue the "art". And only uses a small part of true stage hypnosis.

But that's just me.


Really? So simply because someone is performing basically a stage hypnosis show on the street means that the art is being devalued does it? Do me a favour! I've never heard such rubbish in all my life. So by the same token, if you have a world class violinist playing for coins they are devaluing the art too? By not wearing a tux and playing in a concert hall, somehow their music holds less credibility and cheapens their art?

Similarly if someone is on the street painting the most beautiful, intricate and exquisite paintings, then they are cheapening their art too? All art should rightly and properly be hung in a gallerly in order to give it proper validity?

God forbid that someone, a kid or whoever should see a street hypnosis show, be curious by it, go home, research hypnosis, decide to take a career in it and end up helping people change their lives for the better as a result of what they've witnessed on the streets. What a terrible thing to happen.... and how awful that a street hypnotist might accidently bring joy and pleasure to all who have witnessed ther show, making them forget their troubles and properly belly laugh for the 10 minutes they're standing there watching.... and how awful for the crowds to have a better knowledge and understanding of what we do, having comonplace myths dispelled and as a result of witnessing a street hypnosis show.... that people might actually love what they have seen and go and tell their friends and family what a powerful thing the subconcious mind is. But no - you (and others on here) think that street hypnosis is a bad thing.

To all the nay-sayers: get off your high horses and for one minute, just for one minute think of the GOOD and POSITIVE effects that taking OUR ART to the streets... to the masses might have instead of being so precious.

Also Mindpusher, before you start slagging off Anthony, what do you know about him? Why, in your opinion is his book and dvd quote, "very poor examples" of inductions? Anthony and I have never met, but I have the book and dvd and love them. They are incredibly thorough and he discusses the why and how inductions work. He talks about confidence and he is one of my main influences.

Do you have any idea of his background or what he does? His father Freddy is a leading hypnotherapist here in the UK and Anthony himself is one of the most respected and knowledgable hypnotherapists and hypnotists in the country.

Please THINK before you make such sweeping statements about hypnosis, where it should or should not be performed and the leading exponants of the art.
Sidney
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If anyone thinks that performing hypnosis on the street is going to do anything to elevate the art I beleive that you are delusional and only fooling yourself or selling a street hypnosis product.

I very much doubt that you will find any working professional on the street demonstrating for free, as your more likely to find the newcomers and youtubers with little experience and anxious to exhibit their talents, hence the possibilities for trouble in the way of having an unstable person volunteer to be hypnotized and by inexperience not being equipped to deal with abreactions.

What if a passerby happens to go into trance, steps off the curb and gets hit by a bus.

Can you say lawsuit ?

Sid
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Quote:
On 2009-02-05 19:50, Darren Altman wrote:

To all the nay-sayers: get off your high horses and for one minute, just for one minute think of the GOOD and POSITIVE effects that taking OUR ART to the streets... to the masses might have instead of being so precious.



Darren, I'm not a nay-sayer, but I have to admit that I'm a maybe-sayer.

I've looked at dozens of vids on youtube, and what the people doing street hypnosis there are showing isn't art, it's embarrassment and humiliation. From video quality to stunts (if any), it's really bad. Your contention that someone seeing street hypnosis might be inspired to become a hypnotherapist is like saying someone who saw Jack the Ripper is going to be inspired to become a doctor. I don't buy it.

But I'm not a nay-sayer. If someone is a good entertainer, he or she can entertain anywhere. But trying to entertain anywhere doesn't make you a good entertainer. Nor does being able to put someone into a trance make you a hypnotist. Nor does being able to slice someone with a scalpel make you a surgeon.

I would love to see some really good entertainers do street hypnosis. I think it could be fascinating. But the key to me saying "yes" to this is having good performers do it. Humiliating people by keeping their hands stuck to a garbage can or having orgasms in front of a leering crowd on the street is not my idea of good entertainment and actually shows the paucity of talent in those giving these "shows."
mindpunisher
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>>>>Similarly if someone is on the street painting the most beautiful, intricate and exquisite paintings, then they are cheapening their art too? All art should rightly and properly be hung in a gallerly in order to give it proper validity? <<<

Well yes it does. Value is perception nothing more. Validity is perception. Its been proved thousands of times in marketing with products.

The street is for performers who can't sell tickets and get people to go to theatres. They are not professional.

Street hypnosis is only good for those making a fast easy buck selling dvds teaching you how to do it. Therefore have created a new market to sell them.

And by doing so are damaging the "business" of stage hypnosis. And the market value of stage shows.

Nothing is sacred or secret anymore automatically reduces the value. That principle works across any business not just stage hypnosis.

Its tacky and a bit desparate. Im not on a high horse merely observing a trend. Again Im not desparate to perform to the point I feel the need to get into pubs and streets to hypnotise someone.
mindpunisher
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>>>>>Also Mindpusher, before you start slagging off Anthony, what do you know about him? Why, in your opinion is his book and dvd quote, "very poor examples" of inductions? Anthony and I have never met, but I have the book and dvd and love them. They are incredibly thorough and he discusses the why and how inductions work. He talks about confidence and he is one of my main influences.<<<<


Who slaged off Anthony? I said the videos ive seen of his street demonstrations were very poor examples of stage hypnosis. that's not slagging its an observation. I like Anthony. However some of the questions hes asked on here and examples of videos especially that come with his book make it clear he doesn't have as much experience of stage hypnosis as you would first think.

His book was very well written the examples on the cd in the street were very poor and showed some basic skills missing in stage hypnosis.

A thread he started asking how to stop volunteers being lethargic made it clear he didn't know one of the basic things you need to know in ordrer to be a successful stage hypnotist.

Of course he does now since he got the help he asked for. But my point is the half blind are leading the blind ceating products and trends that are damaging to hypnosis.

And everything you are syaying Darren is Bolloxs...
mindpunisher
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>>>>>Please THINK before you make such sweeping statements about hypnosis, where it should or should not be performed and the leading exponants of the art.<<<<

I have about 20+ years professional experience. I have performed in big venues during the times when we had a lot of trouble with bad hypnotists performing in bars and inappropriate venues. Ive had direct experience of the damage it did to the business, the image of hypnosis. Ive performed through it all. When Anthony was in nappies. As a business person I KNOW the effect it has.

Its not difficult to become a "leading exponent" on here. Even if yo haven't quite grasped the basics. The half blind leading the blind...
Nongard1
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Everything Darren has said is NOT bullocks. It is correct. His analogies are spot on. Nothing stays the same. Hypnosis of the 1800's was nothing like the John Calvert era, and nothing like the 1980's everything, from magic to hypnosis to music changes style form and means. At the same time, things remain the same. for 1000's of years entertainlers have brought art, music, theatre dance to the streets and hypnosis is not different.

Richard
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Darren Altman
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Thank you Richard. I don't know why Mr Mindpusher (why we don't know his real name is a mystery to me!) and his friends are so adamant that all art (not just hypnosis) must be displayed/heard/performed in a specific "bona fide" arena in order that it should be validated.

How does an artform progress and develop? there are people making groundbreaking electronic in their bedrooms, have you heard any Aphex Twin? This guy is breaking boundaries with everything he releases and he's not doing concerts in The Royal Albert Hall. Please tell me where it states that for an artform to be taken seriously that it has to be in front of paying customers in a concert hall, gallery or theatre? For you to state that by performing the equivalant of a stage hypnosis show on the streets cheapens it is, if you'll excuse me, showing your ignorance or at the very least being a snob and precious about hypnosis.

Let me give you an example Mr Mindpusher:

I teach drums in a school and before Christmas in the staff room, I hypnotised a teacher friend of mine and did the usual 'street' phenomena with her, making her forget numbers, catalepsy etc. Around 5 or 6 other teachers were watching and you could call it a mini stret performance even though it was inside. Now everyone knows what I can do.

Last Wednesday out of the blue, a very quiet guy who works in the music department and saw my 'show' came up to me and said gently, "Darren, can I ask you something? Whould hypnosis be able to cure panic attacks?" He explained "Sometimes when I go out or have to meet new people, I get incredibly nervous and panic, my confidence is really low and I hate it". I explained that it definitely would and that I could help him, I told him that we should chat more and I'd be happy to give hime some hypnotherapy based on what I'm learning.

If I hadn't done a mini street show for my colleagues and they hadn't witnessed how powerful hypnosis is, then I would not be in a posiion to potentially help a guy who desperately wants to sort his life out and cross a huge hurdle. Consequently, HE would not now be in a position where he could cross this hurdle and (hopefully, if we get together) make huge changes in his life and turn himself around. Can you imagine how he would feel having hypnosis make him the person he wants to be, all because of me sticking my mates hand to the desk?!

I'm re-iterating my point from my last post: by witnessing a street hypnotist do his act for money outside, people can judge for themselves the power of hypnosis and what the human mind is capable of, something that they may never ever have seen if your theory about containing it to the theatre was held true. Why constrain art? What are you afraid of?

We don't know your background, but from what you say you have over twenty years of stage experience (forgive me if I'm wrong), then surely you would advocate seeing a great hypnotist wooing a crowd with a show outside, dispelling all the myths and preconceptions that come with hypnosis... I've lost count of the number of times people say "p1ss off, don't look at me!!" when I tell that that I'm a hypnotist! How could this possibly be a bad thing? I just don't get it. Art changes, the world changes. If you had your way, the hypnotist would still be wearing a winged collar shirt and tails and asking people to "look deeply into my eeeeeyes!!"
Anthony Jacquin
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Lots of good points raised in this thread.

I have to say that I respect MP's opinions of the routine clips on my DVD, they were not particularly strong. The DVD was only meant to demonstrate and explain the set piece exerices and inductions outlined in the vid. From the positive feedback it received I believe it achienved this The routines tagged on the end featured were left in to demonstrate that the techniques did result in hypnosis and could be taken into simple routines like catalpesy and theft. In his initial review of the dvd a year ago MP made the same comments.

The 'Denzel' clip and 'Cucumber' routine I would say are stronger, and to me qualify as street hypnosis but were not on the vid because they belong to a TV company. I have plenty more material of this quality and will release it later this year as a DVD follow up to Reality is Plastic.

Personally I do not do a busking street hypnosis act. I do not do it for money. Never have. I do it for my own skill development, for fun and to provide free entertainment. Yes it does open doors for me but that is not the aim.

I have never considered street hypnosis to be anything like stage hypnosis so comparing the two seems rather odd to me. I also have never purported to be an expert stage hypnotist. I got into hypnosis 14 years ago via my father an experienced hypnotherapist. I have hypnotized over 5000 people since then and the majority of my performance work has been either walk around or for TV. Yes I have done plenty of stage hypnosis but I am not afraid to ask a question even if it seems basic. Some things are learnt in training and some on the job. When I encounter something new I ask a question. Being a stage hypnotist can be a bit of a 'lonely' business unless you find a network of other performers. The web makes that easier. Regardless of what I might think of some views and statements and performance style I have had good advice on here from Danny, MP , NonCerb and many more privately regarding my stage performance. Thanks.

If MP has made the connection between crap hypnotists and or street hypnosis and the demise of stage hypnotism in the UK then he is a good position to judge given his time in the game. Dunno about me being in nappies 20 years ago MP, I wish. I must look younger than my years Smile

Anthony
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Dannydoyle
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I have to say that though I do not do, never will do and don't enjoy "street hypnosis" this fact alone does not in any way make it bad theater, or wrong. It simply makes it my own opinion. I DO understand the difference here.

Now unfortunatly for the form, it has a LOT of practitioners who are just starting, who have no real idea what they are doing and rather than being the exception they seem to be the rule. This makes the form look bad and I think this is where most of the "push back" comes from stage guys.

To be fair there is a GLUT of very bad stage hypnotists out there. Many got into it for the money, heard it was easier than magic or whatever. They were bad magicians which is why they made no money, and now they are bad hypnotists, making no money. They are mediocre to bad at another craft.

The street hypnosis gives many an "instant stage" and this can be like anything a blessing and a curse. Sometimes the confidence to DO hypnosis in the first place is the same. It makes you blind to the fact that you suck so badly.

I think the problem is that like all forms there is way too many bad vs. good out on video right now especially on You Tube. I think to compare it to stage hypnosis is unfair as well. It is NOT stage hyp. Comparing shows in a bar with those in a theater is also an unfair comparison.

A "street hypnotist" has never gotten me a show and has never taken a show from me. The leap from "this guy did cool in the street" to "wow I bet he can fill my theater" is a tough one to make for people. They may very well think of it, but like many a street magician will tell you it is tough to get someone to think of PAYING you for it. You do what you do for free, I will find a professional who works for money is OFTEN the problem.

As for your "hypnotherapy" session, PLEASE tell me you are a hypnotherapist with some sort of training other than a few DVD's you have bought. Otherwise I have a VERY serious problem with you doing anything of that nature. I don't care WHAT it is you have no business trying to "help" anyone without proper training. This goes for smoking, weight loss and anything you can think of. To put yourself off as some sort of "therapist" because you know how to induce trance, well now we cross a line that I think is harmful. If you have been trained the cool. If not then stay away from it till you are.
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dmkraig
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On 2009-02-07 11:50, Dannydoyle wrote:
To be fair there is a GLUT of very bad stage hypnotists out there. Many got into it for the money, heard it was easier than magic or whatever. They were bad magicians which is why they made no money, and now they are bad hypnotists, making no money. They are mediocre to bad at another craft.


I strongly agree. Stage hypnosis is certainly cheaper to perform--no need for boxes, trailers, multiple assistants, costumes, etc., etc.—but that also means you don't have boxes and costumes to "hide" behind, either. I would contend you must be a better performer to be a hypnotist. That means it's easier to be successful as a poor magician than a poor hypnotist. But a great hypnotist can put on a great show without the large expense of a stage magic act.

Just one thing...Bad magicians who try (and fail) to become hypnotists and are only bad hypnotists still have one more level to go...they become debunkers. If they can't lead the fun they don't want anybody to have any fun. That's not to say that all debunkers are failed magicians/hypnotists--certainly the leading debunkers aren't all failures in those fields. However the followers of those leaders seem to completely be failed and/or incompetent magicians/hypnotists.

Quote:
As for your "hypnotherapy" session, PLEASE tell me you are a hypnotherapist with some sort of training other than a few DVD's you have bought. Otherwise I have a VERY serious problem with you doing anything of that nature. I don't care WHAT it is you have no business trying to "help" anyone without proper training. This goes for smoking, weight loss and anything you can think of. To put yourself off as some sort of "therapist" because you know how to induce trance, well now we cross a line that I think is harmful. If you have been trained the cool. If not then stay away from it till you are.


Well said. Further, a "weekend wonder" course doesn't cut it, either. I would suggest no less than 100 hours minimum to start doing hypnotherapy. Preferably a LOT more combined with studying lots of books.
mindpunisher
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>>>>Personally I do not do a busking street hypnosis act. I do not do it for money. Never have. I do it for my own skill development, for fun and to provide free entertainment. Yes it does open doors for me but that is not the aim.<<<<

Here is my point. If this trend grows to the point where there are a significant number of people doing the above - then things will change very quickly. So at the moment there may not be enough street performers to create that problem. Even so just one accident in the press would change that. Perhaps it will never reach a big enough number? But then again it might.

One of things that I experienced was that how you are percieved by the public and how rapidly that changes. I'm serious almost over night you can go from being a minor rock star status to some kind of sinister pervert. Feared by friends of friends etc.

You may be able to separate stage ftom street hypnosis. But the public and the media will lump them together. A hypnotist is a hypnotist. Infact stage hypnosis is one of the few arts where the subject is more important than the performer's name. (in most cases) And if we get a seriies of bad street hypnotists follwed by a few serious accidents then it is the "hypnosis" that goes to trial not the individual. And everyone that is a "hypnotist".

The business is already battered here. So it most likely won't have any more impact upon that. However I think it will drive hypnosis further into the ground.

If it were just Anthony and a handful running around in public then it may not be a problem. If it becomes more widespread I predict it will make a nice anti documentary and new headlines. Will be a gift to the media here.
mindpunisher
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Anthony are you sure you weren't in nappies? I heard you were a late developer?

Nothing wrong with taking your time though.
mindpunisher
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>>>>How does an artform progress and develop? there are people making groundbreaking electronic in their bedrooms, have you heard any Aphex Twin? This guy is breaking boundaries with everything he releases and he's not doing concerts in The Royal Albert Hall. Please tell me where it states that for an artform to be taken seriously that it has to be in front of paying customers in a concert hall,<<<<

Street hypnosis is stepping backwards not progress. The sale of instructional DVDs are market driven. In other words due to the new sales channel of the internet and the creation of Street hypnosis a new income stream is available for those that want to sell Dvds. And

Out of ALL of the videos ive seem on street hypnosis there is no progress I can see. Apart from the income streams of those that sell such products. Street hypnosis is market driven and has nothing to do with the progress of any art form.

>>>>We don't know your background, but from what you say you have over twenty years of stage experience (forgive me if I'm wrong), then surely you would advocate seeing a great hypnotist wooing a crowd with a show outside, dispelling all the myths and preconceptions that come with hypnosis<<<<<

The chances are we will see dozens of very bad hypnotists causing problems.

>>>>If you had your way, the hypnotist would still be wearing a winged collar shirt and tails and asking people to "look deeply into my eeeeeyes!!"<<<<<


Well actually no. Ive created programmes for ex drug abusers that were funded by the government. Ive recently worked with law enforcement agencies to persuade the public to come forward with info of drug dealers. Ive also created sales records for a prestige car group. Have helped many small to medium businesses gain 1000,000s of revenue by negotating higher contracts. Ive helped large charities do the same too.

I see hypnosis on a different level. I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND ANYONE TO SEEK THERAPY FROM A STREET PERFORMER. The fact that someone asked you to do therapy only confirms one of my previous posts. The public lump everything together and cannot tell the difference between stage, street or therapy. A hypnotist is a hypnotist in their eyes and all the same. They can't even tell the difference between an experienced therapist with many hours/months training in different approaches and years experience from someone who got a long distance certificate in the post.

And the fact the you cannot see or understand market positioning and the damage it does to stage hypnosis or hypnosis in general as a powerful tool tells me you are indeed talking bollox. While Richard is talking dollars. Its not about progress of the art. Its business. I am not against business fair enough but lets be honest here.

Sure things change all the time but its not always progess. Look at the Rain Forrests......progress?
mindpunisher
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I am not putting Richard down. I am sure he sells good products. I just don't like the trend.
Thomas Kwon
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Why does this have to happen everyday in this section....
Nongard1
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Darren,
MP is the nameless hypnotist from the UK who for years has chosen to be anonymous.
And you and I will never agree with MP on most things, but suffice it to say, without him the magic Café hypnosis section would not be as lively or as interesting as it is.
I will never understand his vantagepoint, and he likely will not see mine, but at least its always fun around here.... Unless he's off his meds for a week or two... LOL j/k
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
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Dannydoyle
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He IS nameless, but it is a conclusion that he is from the UK, and even a further conclusion that he is actually a hypnotist.

These are conclusions drawn by reading his posts. Even under the name Shrink he was nameless. He may or may not be from the UK and he may or may not have been a hypnotist at one time as he claims. You just never know.

I have no idea why he chooses to throw stones from the dark, but oh well as Richard says it does liven things up.
Danny Doyle
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mindpunisher
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I have no idea why you post here either Danny. But it is clear why Richard posts. He's selling his Dvd's.

And I really don't understand your analogy of "throwing stones from the dark?"

I choose to tell things how they are - show me in this thread where I haven't? Show me one "stone".

There are are at least a couple of 100 members of the Café who have purchased products from me in the past. A good number of high profile Pros. Its not that difficult to find out my name. Having said that your name or richard's have about as much meaning to me as MP or anything else. I don't want my name searchable on the net for clients to track.

>>>.I will never understand his vantagepoint, and he likely will not see mine, but at least its always fun around here..<<<<

Richard of course I see yours. Your on here for commercial reasons. You are here for business. If I were selling Dvds to the masses Il'd be promoting street hypnosis etc to.

I just don't agree with your assertions that all this mass produced marketing is good or progress for stage hypnosis or otherwise.

Infact I just recieved a pm from a pro hypnotist who can no longer compete with the younger wannabees springing up from all over the place offering to do shows for $300.

It seems even your part of the world the lag time is indeed catching up. But I expect you still have plenty time to sell your Dvds and make some more cash. I am not against free enterprise.

But I do like to call a spade a spade.
Dannydoyle
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Of course you don't want your thoughts searchable for clients. That pretty much says it all.

You can't see what "throwing stones from the dark" is? Let me help. You are in the dark part of the internet, you choose to remain hidden behind some fake name, your second one as a matter of fact Shrink, and you just throw out assertions and ocmments claiming ot speak for all agents, and the United Kingdom.

Yet nobody can see who you are to judge what your statements may be weighed against.

Clear for you?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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