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TStone V.I.P. Stockholm, Sweden 769 Posts |
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On 2009-03-03 14:58, Ray Haining wrote: If? Do you have any reason to doubt it? You seem to say that; because Axel posted the clip on YouTube, I must be lying about the performance? Can't follow that logic... It was posted on YouTube, as a sample of the kind of atmosphere he desiere to create in his future productions. Mainly for friends and family, but also to show that he has produced a show for real. Is that not allowed anymore? Axel has already gotten technical critique, by knowledgeable people he trust, soon after the second and final performance in 2006. So, the critique here, two years after he ceased to perform the C&B, doesn't really seem to be for constructive purposes. If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you'll see that it was Kent Gunn, not Axel, who posted it here. So, I suggest that you aim your critizism towards Kent instead. Quote:
The one thing I liked about the routine was when it was, finally, over. Well, I'm sure that your technique was flawless, on the premiere day of your own first theatre production ever, back when you were 20 years old. And I'm sorry that someone held a gun to your head, and forced you to look at this clip against your will. Quote:
On 2009-03-03 17:29, ramoss wrote: Okey, I'll have coffee with Axel in a few days. I'll ask him to remove this clip from YouTube. Satisfied? |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts |
I criticized Kent Gunn, the originator of this thread, for his statement that lay people, especially women, would "go gaga" for this routine.
I'll take the time to watch any performance of the cups and balls. Does that mean I have to like it? Aren't we a bit testy? |
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TStone V.I.P. Stockholm, Sweden 769 Posts |
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On 2009-03-03 19:11, Ray Haining wrote: Is that surprising? I bet there are at least 200 clips of young guys doing the C&B for the first time ever on YouTube. Most of them are more or less identical. The only reason this is singled out and torn to shreds seem to be because of the attempt to create an atmosphere in a dramatic context. You might believe it is fruitful to signal "Give up all such attempts!" I don't. |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts |
I must admit I'm a bit behind the times. I really don't know what is posted on YouTube. I also must admit that I'm biased against attempts to add novelty to the cups and balls. For instance, I never cared for the Tommy Wonder routine.
It is true that Mr. Adlercreutz never asked for criticism of his routine. That came about as a result of it being referred to (actually raved about) in a thread on this forum. It is also true that I did not offer any constructive criticism except to suggest that the cup-through-cup move be moved to the beginning of the routine. The only constructive criticism I could give would be to scratch the routine and start over. Mr. Stone states that Mr. Adlercreutz no longer performs the routine, so be it. However, constructive criticism was offered by Pete Biro if someone would ask. Who knows? Maybe this will be the start of something. What do say Pete? What ideas do you have for this routine? Two cups and gloves produced from both cups is what we have so far. |
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Keith Mitchell Special user 799 Posts |
I did not realize that this video was posted on YouTube back in 2006, so my statement was based on how I saw it for the first time when Kent Gunn started this thread.
I never intended for Axel to give up this routine, I only wanted him to improve it. Make it more complete. It would be nice to see what he is doing today. Lets have fun folks! |
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TStone V.I.P. Stockholm, Sweden 769 Posts |
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On 2009-03-04 13:52, Ray Haining wrote: It helps knowing where you are coming from; your perspective, that is. I'm less testy now Take a peek at these search results: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Cups+Balls |
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walid ahumada Special user sinaloa, mexico 892 Posts |
“Magic becomes art when it has nothing to hide.” BEN OKRI quote
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kentfgunn Inner circle Merritt Island FL 1639 Posts |
Hi Tom !!!
This can be a place for open and constructive criticism. It doesn't happen very often, but it can be. I saw Axel's routine on youtube when it was originally posted. I ran across it again and thought some folk here might enjoy it; I most certainly did. My comments about the fairer sex going gaga, may have been an exaggeration. My wife, who has seen more cups and balls magic than most of her gender was very enthusiastic about watching it. Both of my daughters, (adults, btw), who have seen more cups and balls routines than any person should ever have to see, both were very complimentary. The youngest daughter was quite effusive. So . . . that's where I based my original comment. Three women, who barely qualify as lay-folk, were very, very impressed. I saw, in Axel's routine something very special . . . the genesis of a thing of beauty. I won't say I think it is world-class entertainment on a scale of a Wagner opera. I will say it beats the living snot out of 99 of 100 performances I've seen, in originality. I'm big on originality, really big. Compared to one more hack doing Vernon or Ammar's routine, pouch at the side, wearing a bowler and a vest, stealing Gazzo's line by the pamphlet-full: this young person's routine is gold! Many comments were made about his technique. To those who criticized . . . How's your routine looking these days. Got a vest and giberce, and someone else's presentation ready to go??? Oh . . . you don't actually perform the trick . . . I see. Come on folks! Tom has given us more insight about the routine than we deserve. It's art to me. If it's junk to you . . . fine. I'll wager Axel, should he decide to persue the performance arts, will be a great performer. I think that his routine holds magnificent potential. If I had a perfect routine, something of truly great potential, I may have been able to make a bunch of carping comments. Lucky for me, I remember how difficult it is to innovate. I know that my own skills are not complete. I cannot judge others any more harshly than I do myself. For all the cracks about bowlers and pouches . . . I apologize right now. KG |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Hey, I happen to like my bowler. So does my wife as she bought it for me.
(This next part isn't about Axel directly, it applies to anything I see) I'm learning quickly both in magic and other things that there are performers and coaches. Performers seldom have what it takes to teach effectively, and teachers don't necessarily have the presentational skills to perform. It's a left brain/right brain sort of thing. Although I'm about as clumsy as it gets, I know what looks good... and what doesn't. But rather than criticize the negatives, I try to offer constructive criticism to make things better. I don't have to have a perfect steal to know when one's done badly. If I see someone flash a load, I'm sure others do too and would rather offer assistance than let someone keep doing it badly. I do understand that Axel didn't ask for our help, but putting up a performance and asking us to view it opens the door for opinions, welcome or not.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Bill Wilson Special user 536 Posts |
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On 2009-02-22 11:59, kentfgunn wrote: What's up with that? What a totally IMPRACTICAL routine. Worth watching, but who turns out the lights to do their cups & balls routine? |
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kentfgunn Inner circle Merritt Island FL 1639 Posts |
1. I should've written innovative. I hate it when I make grammatical errors.
2. Wandboy: What is up with that? Innovative is different than impractical. This routine was featured as part of a larger show. I never said it was practical. Perhaps Axel has access to venues with a lighting crew and complete control of his performing environment. In that sense, it is apparently, quite practical. Who turns the lights out to do the cups and balls? -> Well, Axel Axelcreutz does. What's with all the rhetorical questions? 3. Dave V. I feel badly about the hat line. You have a fine bowler. I covet it. Unfortunately I only wear fedoras. I do not wear them around magicians though. If somebody posts stuff on youtube, it's open to being criticized. I know this as well as anyone. I will continue to post cups and balls routines I find, while wasting my time on youtube. I've posted: Antonio Romero's routine. Fred Kaps' Kate Medvedeva's A nice and quite complete Indian magician's routine, My own droolings and Axel's routine. I like the cups and balls. I will continue to post the routines here. I enjoy the debates and have learned a great deal myself. Feel free to disagree with me. If you don't perform the trick at all and never have. Feel free to still disagree. I'll keep post |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Yes, please keep posting. I love watching every one of them. It's fun reading the comments people leave. Pete mentioned finding Antonio on Youtube but although I bought his DVD, I still can't seem to find him anywhere on Youtube.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Ethan Orr Regular user Minneapolis 163 Posts |
A few words on artistic innovation. I work part time in a modern art museum, where artists are rewarded for being avant garde--and often little else.
Artistic innovation is important, but not when it's simply for its own sake. Then it's just pretentious. The sonnet is a more or less dead form, yet I would much rather hear a beautifully crafted sonnet than some poorly formed piece of self-indulgent poetry slam. The avant garde is essential to the arts and culture, but only when it's inspired, and not based on contrived ideas. If not, we're filling museums with ideas and not art. The same goes for the art of magic. This is just my input on the subject and not my criticism of the video, nor is it directed in response to anyone in particular here. |
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Bill Wilson Special user 536 Posts |
Excuse me Kent, I did not know that Axel's routine was part of a larger show. I assumed it was a singular piece as most cups routines are. This is yet another problem of seeing magic on the screen. In this case the entire act was not shown, just a slice. If the entire act was shown I might have a different opinion.
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Dave Shepherd Regular user Washington, DC 116 Posts |
The Professor quoted somebody else as saying "How to you get into it, and how do you get out of it?"
When I perform the C&B (in my admittedly derivative and somewhat predictable presentation), it is part of a show. I don't think I've ever performed it as a stand-alone piece, in a situation where I did no other magic at all. Context does indeed matter. The context of Axel's routine was made clear several times in this thread. Tom Stone explained it explicitly, but even before Tom came on board, others had figured out that it was part of a bigger show. In fact, the applause and the wide shot at the end of the clip made this clear. I'm with Kent. I just don't understand all this carping. Some of you seem to think there should be nothing in a presentation of magic other than "magic"--whatever that's supposed to mean. Theatrical elements are what make any performance special. Axel incorporated some theatrical elements that are not commonly seen in C&B performances, which is what made it special (for me). |
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Ruben Padilla Loyal user Narrative Strategist 206 Posts |
You guys are pretty tough...
I'm going to think twice about ever posting my routine without first wearing a suit of armor. (Wait a minute, that's not a bad presentation!...) I completely agree with Kent. Every word. So there's no reason writing more. Except... Quote:
On 2009-02-23 01:52, Dave V wrote: That's a very funny paragraph, Dave. Ruben |
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JRob Veteran user Central South Carolina 395 Posts |
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On 2009-03-01 17:07, TStone wrote: I never claimed that he made that claim. I was responding to someone else's commet and the way the clip was presented to us, NOT to the clip itself. I said with polish it will be an excellant routine.
"Jim Roberts, AKA: Professor Jay Rob "<br>
The Professor's Facebook Page |
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Ray Haining Inner circle Hot Springs, AR 1907 Posts |
Hey Tom. Thanks for that link. Excellent. Peace.
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
My vote goes alongside Kent and Tom, without hesitation. The slow rhythm is not constant and is actually always mixed with short fast moves. The artistic approach is obviously the result of a lot of thinking.
What Pete may dislike in the one glove (but it's for him to state) is that the movement for putting the glove on is (by nature) not graceful and, as such, contrasts with the rest of the routine. This could be overcome with an instant color change of the first glove during the routine (there is a technique for that with quick change artists): then the difficulty in initially putting on a glove would be the lead to an effect in itself. Yes there are technical opportunities for improvement but, to me, this is rather good news when seeing the quality of the starting point. Richard Evans raised some good potentials for improvement. I would add that Jean Caroly's Tip Over Load (often miscalled as Vernon Tip Over Load) could also be made more deceptive in reworking the tabling down of the cups which is, IMHO, a weak technical point. Despite these (hopefully) constructive comments, this is all in all a great routine: not just different, artistically far better than most (namely but not only in rhythm management). Congratulations to Axel (with encouragement to keep on continuous improvement) and gratitude to both Kent and Tom for bringing it up and rightfully defending it.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
Stimulating presentation.
Refreshing to see an artistic approach to some familiar moves coming from a young gentleman who is not afraid to take the risks inherent in a melancholy melody. I hope Axel continues to refine this presentation, it has a lot going for it that I like. |
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