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MagicZulu
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On 2009-02-27 20:02, kissdadookie wrote:
The "magic" here is that the biddle doesn't even matter Smile That final mix is what really drives it home as well as take the control apparently away from the performer and gives it to the spectator. Guess that didn't register with you. Now, I do like Harry's routine BUT it's a routine where in the end the spectator is more likely associate the magic to the performer more so than to themselves. I'm in the camp where I firmly feel that effects are STRONGER when it appears that the spectator did it themselves, you're just there as a catalyst. Want to go into this further? Ok, I shall Smile

Think happy, thing sad, think happy. Perfect sorting of a single colour, a small mix of mixed up colours, back to perfect sorting again. Guess what happens in the end? It's very easy and very easily believable for the spectator that they had a personal impact on the effect especially when it's pretty much all hands off on your part for practically the entire effect (apart from the biddle part, which by the way you can easily have substituted with whatever other method you much rather use, someone ::cough cough:: obviously didn't have their thinking caps on and very much like to do things word for word as taught, joy). So let's recap, amaze the spectators and have them go "Wow Mr. Magician, you did a wonderful job" or "Wow, Mr. Magician, you did a wonderful job... but wait... this doesn't make sense... how the heck did I do that (emphasis on the word "I" from the point of the spectator)." I guess I rather rob the spectator out of a more magical experience and instead just make myself Mr. Magician That is Never Wrong. Thank you. I now have a brand new perspective on things Darkstar. Smile


This is a totally ridiculous comment. Are you trying to imply that Stage Magicians need to change their routines so that it creates the belief that the spectator created the magic. I mean, while performing a transposition effect, do you invite two spectator that will magically change places? On the way to the stage, must you whisper in their ears to slip out of that special hole!!! It would be a joke involving a spectator with a snowstorm effect.

One could list hundreds of effects that are beautiful and amazing without the involvement of a spectator and in fact are better without the so called effect of the spectator. You cannot make a statement declaring all effects that do not have the spectator believing that they performed the magic, as being inferior.

As for the main topic, I'm really disappointed with this set. I will admit that I have not finished watching all of the DVD's as I prefer to examine each one thoroughly. I found the first DVD very weak (except for Cheng's Change and Son of Cellophane Surprise which where OK, nothing special). New Leaf is dreadful. You need to set this up before hand (totally unnatural), then walk up to a spectator. Show this 'parcel' of leaves, get them to hold this behind their backs and start walking so as not to expose the effect.

Backlash 2 is more confusing than magical. I needed to watch this twice just to confirm that this is rubbish. I was sure that I missed something, it could not be this bad. The whole effect is just illogical. Of course the card is the whole time in your pocket and why does your signature now appear on the card when you never signed it. Some might say this is magical. I just say it reeks of setup.

The Big Tiny is just to long and drawn out for the resulting effect plus you waste a deck of cards each time you want to perform it. Technically you have to use this as a closer and this effect is definitely not worthy of a closer.
kissdadookie
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Oh boy, round and round we go. I'm not going to go into detail responding to your comment Magiczulu as I've must have had answered your very points multiple times both in this thread and at least one other thread. I like how you've basically gave no real explanation as to why these effects are do not work for you apart from a personal preference.

I do want to comment about your stage magician comment though. First off, I don't see how effects from TA are stage style effects. It's a completely different performance arena. Let's put it this way, am I going to introduce a dove act into my close-up work? Uhm... I hope not, that would make my close-up very impractical. Maybe I should use a card fountain instead? Maybe carry around a top hat and do a manipulation act while performing close-up? Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. Joy, you make a lot of sense there, thanks for the effort.
Tom G
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Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but to get so passionate about why an effect is good or bad is somewhat fruitless. There's been discussion of Dunn's Deal. It's being compared to other versions and such. But I'd bet you'd never hear
spectators saying they like Lorayne's version over Dunn's. When someone argues with so much passion about why one version isn't as good as or better than the other it sounds more like a magician's view. Not based on a layperson's view. There's nothing wrong with not liking the TA set, as long as you've bought it. It does appear that some are bashing and don't own it. Maybe they're just using someone elses post to make their argument. As for the line about well established magi's not liking something, I don't buy it. Let them speak for themselves.
Dr Spektor
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Quote:
On 2009-02-28 17:13, kissdadookie wrote:
Mines is ugly? Ha ha, no no, Dr. Spektor's was ruthless.


Because I don't know any Ruths. I better hang out in the VIP lounge and find one. Smile

Now... back to the BIIIIIIIGGGGG tiiiinnyyy..... as I was saying...
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
vinsmagic
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This is a complete rip off........enough said
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
fridoliina89
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On 2009-02-28 20:10, vinsmagic wrote:
This is a complete rip off........enough said


Why is it a complete rip off?
Dr Spektor
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Quote:
On 2009-02-28 19:33, MagicZulu wrote:
As for the main topic, I'm really disappointed with this set. I will admit that I have not finished watching all of the DVD's as I prefer to examine each one thoroughly.


So, you are condeming the entire set based on watching only some of them! Cool! You are using Random Sampling techniques.... you iz a scientist! Did you watch more than the first?

Quote:
I found the first DVD very weak (except for Cheng's Change and Son of Cellophane Surprise which where OK, nothing special).


Funny - Cheng's is a really a quick utility move and not a routine.... can it be you are looking for that? Beats me... Cheng's change was one of the things I likely won't use... as I'm not a cardie... I'm sure its great for some... but as others posted... Cheng's stuff actually is a bit diff. from the rest of the theme of the project... why the heck did you buy this??? Do you know anything about Paul Harris????

Quote:
New Leaf is dreadful. You need to set this up before hand (totally unnatural),


Yes... it is more natural to pull a deck of cards outta your pocket... all normal people carry that... those leaves look like they must be made of rubber... its a rubber plant!!!!

How about just say the effect - a torn leaf is magically restored.... appears impromptu...

Quote:
then walk up to a spectator. Show this 'parcel' of leaves, get them to hold this behind their backs and start walking so as not to expose the effect.


try performing it... see the reactions. Isn't that part of the vetting process before judgement? ... oops..... no ditching allowed in any of you effects? Ooops... here the spec does the ditching? That a no no?

I will say this isn't one of my fav's either... but c'mon - you don't see the potential because you have to work on making it appear impromptu? Sheesh. Here is something to think about - its actually organic and fits with appearing to do outdoor magic versus pulling out a deck and saying "well, it fits... the cards are made of paper and they came from trees..." and then some wise guy says "Hey those are Klem plastic cards!!! PHONEY!!!!" and machine-guns ya down....

Quote:
Backlash 2 is more confusing than magical.


Because you didn't understand it at first?

Quote:
I needed to watch this twice just to confirm that this is rubbish.



How many times do I need to read your post to determine if its rubbish?


Quote:
I was sure that I missed something, it could not be this bad. The whole effect is just illogical. Of course the card is the whole time in your pocket and why does your signature now appear on the card when you never signed it. Some might say this is magical. I just say it reeks of setup.


Yeah, all magic is logical. "Pick a card!" "Why?"... "Write down the info!" "Why?" ... most "illogic" is dealt with when using a good presentation. I think one reason people are not liking the set is that the provided presentations may not jive with their performance style... BUT WHY WOULD YOU PRESENT IT LIKE SOMEONE ELSE????

Quote:
The Big Tiny is just to long and drawn out for the resulting effect plus you waste a deck of cards each time you want to perform it. Technically you have to use this as a closer and this effect is definitely not worthy of a closer.


<<Removes carrot and chomps on it>> Of course you know, this means War!

Seriously, anyone who thinks the Big Tiny is a bad effect has never performed it or not performed it properly. I've posted on this a bunch and no one responds... but here it is in short:

1) Its an OFFBEAT effect... its something totally unexpected for people... versus a reveal or whatver... they can't see where it is going

2) You are taught a great utility false shuffle... gets to avoid a slip cut... you do realize it can be used for other effects and routines that you build?

3) It is super-personalized to a participant - this is great for really wanting to do an effect you think might be The Effect or a deal maker... or whatever relationship you are building

4) Giving it away is a STRENGTH... make sure the card box has your advertisement on it....

5) Long and drawn out? Depends on your style. This can be constructed into a full piece as I've posted elsewhere, but when I started using it just as given to get my chops on it... it took 2-3 minutes total. If you think is too long - you might be thinking as a tech robot magician versus a mystery performer. Have you truly tried this effect?!!?!? It is not long and it keeps people GLUED to the process...

6) If you don't believe it is gonna work, it will rub off on your presentation.

7) I just bought another lot of used cards off ebay cheap-o so I can do this every day (the deck of cards work out to 50 cents a pack!)... you don't have to use Bikes or Vipers or TIgers... get a bunch of cheapo bridge cards or whatever... it doesn't matter.... so long as you can do a riffle with them, you are set.

So, No, I do not plan to convince people any of the effects are worthwhile, but posts like the above are quite narrow in my opinion and I believe the people posting don't TRY THE *** EFFECT FIRST WITH SOME IOTA OF EFFORT TO TRY TO MAKE IT WORK....

IMHO.

Heck, I'm going to find Darkstar and at the VIP lounge and pick up Ruth with the BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGG... without Tiny.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
MagicZulu
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Quote:
On 2009-02-28 19:41, kissdadookie wrote:
Oh boy, round and round we go. I'm not going to go into detail responding to your comment Magiczulu as I've must have had answered your very points multiple times both in this thread and at least one other thread. I like how you've basically gave no real explanation as to why these effects are do not work for you apart from a personal preference.

I do want to comment about your stage magician comment though. First off, I don't see how effects from TA are stage style effects. It's a completely different performance arena. Let's put it this way, am I going to introduce a dove act into my close-up work? Uhm... I hope not, that would make my close-up very impractical. Maybe I should use a card fountain instead? Maybe carry around a top hat and do a manipulation act while performing close-up? Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. Joy, you make a lot of sense there, thanks for the effort.


Actually, I clearly say what makes the stated effects weak. You casually make remarks about others not reading your posts, when you obviously suffer from the same defect. Just read my post again. In summary, New Leaf, poor setup, need to approach a spectator, stop them, them make them walk again. Backlash 2, confusing and illogical. Your signature now on the card when you never signed any card. The Big Tiny, long and drawn out, waste of a deck of cards, needs to be a closer and not strong enough.

Secondly, you made a broad statement that magic is only magically if the spectator believes they created the magic. I gave you an obvious example why you where wrong, which you obviously realized. But even in close up, there are many magically effects that cannot work with the spectator believing they created the magic (McDonalds Aces, Oil and Water, and even the timeless effect you mentioned, the 6 card repeat, and the list could go on). The point is, and I'm sure you know it, each effect is designed to be magically in it's own way.
Joe Roberts
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Quote:
On 2009-02-28 21:37, MagicZulu wrote:
In summary, New Leaf, poor setup, need to approach a spectator, stop them, them make them walk again. Backlash 2, confusing and illogical. Your signature now on the card when you never signed any card. The Big Tiny, long and drawn out, waste of a deck of cards, needs to be a closer and not strong enough.


MagicZulu,

You don't need to make the spectator walk for New Leaf.

Yes, in backlash 2 their signature morphs into yours. I'm not sure why that's illogical to you. It's kind of like saying the end of cups and balls is illogical because there are lemons under the cups where there weren't before. That's not illogical -- it's magical (or at least it should be).

And I disagree with you on Big Tiny. I'm sure you can keep a spectator's interest for the couple minutes the trick takes. And decks of cards are cheap. Perhaps it's not the type of effect you would do walkaround, 50 times a night. But this set isn't designed to be a set of restaurant magic.

See? You came here and stated your opinion. I state my differing opinion. Maybe we debate a little. But we can all be friends.
MagicZulu
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Well clearly Dr. Spektor, you are no scientist. A random sample would mean taking effects from different parts of different DVDs in the set. As you noticed, I only commented on the first volume. But, let me respond to your post;

I have only commented on the first DVD, which is the one that I have studied the most. I only received my set on Friday and wanted to be fair. Maybe I should have said, 'so far, I have been disappointed..'. I have viewed the first 4 volumes. Still, this does not weaken my point. I'm disappointed with what I've seen so far.

I bought this on the premise of his reputation and the marketing hype, and of coarse I know who he is. What a ridiculous and childish question. Does it mean that because I knew who he was, I will be receiving weak material.

Your point about pulling a deck of card not being natural. You obviously don't understand what I'm saying. You not pulling the leaves from your pocket. You approach the spectator with the leaves in position to perform the effect. This position is unnatural. This is like approaching a spectator with a double life in place and saying, "Check this out". As for the ditch, and this sounds like some kindergarten class, you don't understand the point I'm making. The effect is weak because the ditching process requires the spectator to walk away when before they were standing still. Ditching is not a problem, it the way the ditching process is achieved.

You then go into some nonsensical diatribe that requires no response. Obviously a small minded attempt to being comical.

Backlash 2. You are very correct that the presentation style/making the effect your own, can remove the illogicality of this or maybe any effect, but I was commenting on the effect as presented on the DVD. Suddenly your signature is now on the card and you never signed it.

As for 'The Big Tiny'. Even the presentation of this effect is trimmed down on the DVD. Again, obviously I have not performed this as stated before, I only received my set on Friday. For me, I don't like the fact that you need a new deck each time you perform this. Cheap decks are also not an option, unless this is the only card effect that you plan to do and you only plan to do it a few times in a night.

At least I have stated why and what I don't like in these effects. I do realize that maybe many will love the effects that I have found weak, but the topic asked what you disliked. Just because I feel it is a poor effect to consume one deck for one effect does not mean it will be a poor effect for another.

I fail to understand why it is not possible to make negative comments without a flood or sarcastic and childish comments from numerous members, even though the subject matter calls for negative comments. I don't mind comments that attempt to correct ones own misunderstandings. Dr. Spektor, you obviously have a clear understanding of 'The Big Tiny'. 90% of your comments were well present and made me want to listen, but sarcasm creates a negative block. I know I have returned the sarcasm and I do apologize.
MagicZulu
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Joe, thank you for your comments. You are a true gentleman. Not just in your comment to me but also your past comments.

You have got me thinking about adding the morphing process to the effect. As Dr. Spektor stated, changing the presentation can remove the illogicality as I perceive in the original presentation. I was little blinded by my own rage in his sarcasm.
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Wow......apparently what started as a topic to see what people didn't like (And I think this is a good thought, as maybe I don't like something, but someone else can put a twist on it so I would . Or at least would try what someone mentions) has turned into a "my deck is bigger the you deck" or "my deck can beat up your deck" thread. I started to read this thread to see what people thought were not so good effects (yes I own the set) and all it has served to do was irritate me.

And for the record: I didn't like Chengs Riser. Because I can't do it properly. Simple reason. Still trying though....

Poof!!

-J-
I don't care how fast or slow you are.... As long as I am faster.. -J-
Douglas Lippert
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Alright fellas, should I bring out the measuring tape? (figuratively speaking)

Doug L.
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PatrickGregoire
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Quote:
On 2009-02-28 23:25, MagicZulu wrote:
I don't mind comments that attempt to correct ones own misunderstandings.


Then you won't mind me correcting you that you don't have to be still during New Leaf and then start walking towards the end for no reason. You can perform it while walking the whole time... That's what Bro does in one of his performances and you clearly see it.

Also, you can approach someone to perform New Leaf by holding the leaves together with just one hand. You don't have to hold it in position with both hands. Yes, that would look unnatural, as if you were coming to present them with the leaves. Just pinch the setup with index, middle finger and thumb and walk towards them. When they agree to see your little miracle, you bring the leaves up and facing you (like a wrist kill), place your other hand in position and bring them back down. Simple as that.

Something else that might make New Leaf more practical is to actually go on a leaf hunt and keep all the good leaves you found. Keep a few on your person when you go out and know you'll be outside and you can just pull them out and set them up in a few seconds when nobody's looking.
Dr Spektor
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MagicZulu, I surrender. You clearly are the Master of Magic. I give up. You have convinced me that the TA set sucks - I shall burn the box forthwith.

Sarcasm? sheesh - read your initial post - check out your own use of strong negative language without any context and then ask why I might want to shine a light on your words.

I also love that most the pot-stirrers are all newbies with posts under 20... or maybe it is just one newbie.

In any case, I won't be posting on this thread anymore.

Now, with the magic from the TA set - I have restored the burnt ashes back to the box aof DVDs.... ta da! See? An adaptation of NEw Leaf. Did you see me make you walk around the MC to do it?
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
mayniac
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Quote:
On 2009-02-28 16:32, kissdadookie wrote:
Mayniac, I suggest you read this whole thread from the beginning, then you'll have a better understanding of what's going on, if you are going to answer back with "Why should I?" then you've more or less proved my point as well as made yourself and Darkstar even sillier. He's quite entertaining with his VIP lounge comments. You should have read the girl on their knees one. If anything Mayniac, just go back to read Darkstar's comments, they are worth a couple of laughs.

I was mainly agreing with him about the fact that people should be able to speak their mind and say their opinions, either negative or positive, and not get yelled at. I was not necessarily agreeing with him on the matter at hand.
Jonathan Smith
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Big Tiny.
tian_ci
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As far as big tiny, this effect is the one I've performed the most off of True astonishment.

You realize you can get -4- performances off of one deck... just use the four different sides. If anything using a deck that already has marker on it builds up interest in the trick. I have tons of decks laying around the house... The big tiny offers a perfect trick to recycle old card decks and get the most out of them.

Sure you're entitled to your own opinion, but the big tiny is a good trick. It's different than the standard pick a card trick. I've performed it about 5 or 6 times just on friends and a few guys at the last magic meeting. All them liked it.

cheers
Matt
kissdadookie
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Judah, it's quite ridiculous how this thread started as what effects folks didn't like quickly turned into a "TA sucks because everything on it sucks." In other words, these folks that did not like TA took it upon themselves to turn this thread into something that it was never meant to be in the first place. Dr. Spektor also brought up a good point, the bash TA trend has started and is still continued by folks who have not contributed much of anything to the Café apart from being vocal about "TA sucks, it's a rip off." That alone is quite questionable.

By the way Vinny, why exactly is this a rip off? I heard through the grapevine that you're a bit sour due to some personal issues you've had before TA was even released, but that's besides the point, I would still like to know why this is a rip off?
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Even if you use the deck one time for The Big Tiny, use a cheap deck like the practice ones I get at the dollar store. 2 for $1.
I am getting so tired of slitting the throats of people who say that I am a violent psychopath.

Alec
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