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sodman12 Special user raleigh 601 Posts |
Hey everyone,
Its been awhile since I've posted, had to take a break since a direct correlation was seen between my university grades and my card deck abilities. Who knew? This may be terribly newbie question to begin posting about but I'll make it anyways. Me and a friend wanted to get into card counting a little bit. I know that movie about the MIT guys came out (was it 21?) are there still places where one can get away with counting if he is good? If some places are obtainable, then what is the best resource for gathering information on the topic? I know its basically math, but surely some fineness does come into play at some point? Anyways, glad to be back and I hope someone can steer me in the right direction. Thanks, Thad
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
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Louis.P.M Loyal user Montreal, Canada 218 Posts |
I think the first book was called "Beat the dealer" or something like that...
Anyway, in a casino the worst thing that can happen to a card counter is to have the dealer put the cut card in the middle of the shoe, hence denying a running count (Since the best true count will have to be divided by 4, in a 8 decks game). This is based on the casino in Montreal, other casinos may have other rules(beneficial or not to a counter, like the surrender rule). |
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Kimura Special user 519 Posts |
It's not an easy thing to pull off. Casinos encourage card counting for a reason. It's a little bit more than math, you should be prepared to read a lot on the subject.
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Some would call this the online resource of choice.....some may not.
Personally, I've found that everything I want to know is either on this site, linked to from this site, or you're told what to look for elsewhere. http://www.bj21.com/ |
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Enzo Loyal user CA 243 Posts |
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Casinos encourage card counting for a reason. Do they? Please elaborate. |
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Kimura Special user 519 Posts |
Because lots of people think they know what they're doing when they don't and end up screwing it up and losing money, pretty much
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Enzo Loyal user CA 243 Posts |
And they really encourage card counting? Wow. But even if they screw up, wouldn't that put their chances back to "normal"?
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2009-03-04 15:48, Enzo wrote: The advantage is sleight if you do everything perfectly, barring enormous betting variations (that would expose you). Most people who try to count are so far from perfect that they're still at a disadvantage, and in exchange, the casino gets huge advertising mileage from the game's inherent beatability. The "Bringing Down the House"/"21" crew's big wins weren't predicated on their counting skills (though obviously you have to be able to do it); they were predicated on the team play and signals, so the big bettor didn't have to go from $5 to $500 bets when the count was favorable, thereby exposing the show; the small bettors sat through the average-to-poor decks, and let him know when to come in. An individual playing without that kind of cover, with a reasonable spread of bets, can certainly have a positive expectation, but most won't. And even for those who do, barring a really big bankroll, you have two choices - starting bets so small that you're going to be grinding out a surprisingly low hourly rate; or so large that you're going to be a heavy favorite to lose your bankroll before your slight edge kicks in over the long run.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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matu New user 53 Posts |
Enzo, counting card allows you to deviate from standard play. If you screw up somewhere you will start doing the opposite of what you should be doing. So no, the odds would not go back to "normal" they would be against you. But like Lobowolf pointed out, the edge you get from counting card isn't very big at all.
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
I'm still lmao at Casino's encourage card counting. Show me a Casino in Las Vegas or Atlantic City that does, and I will show you my title to the land on Mars
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
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On 2009-03-04 20:02, RS1963 wrote: You may "Lyao", but it's sometimes difficult to know what casinos encourage, and what they discourage. I can name half a dozen so-called "players" who would describe themselves as hard core card counters, and whom also receive a nice fat comp package from their casino of choice. Those same casinos welcome them with open arms as the ****** card counters they really are. Counting cards well enough to impact the casino is something that very few people actually do. The other 98% of folks that say they count cards are welcomed by every casino in Vegas as the players they are. It's like all the Hold'Em experts out there these days......most of whom are welcomed with open arms by the guys that were playing Hold"Em regularly back in the mid-eighties. To steal Z's old Jimmy Hoffa quote signature line (one of the best ever)....."if you has to say you is....you ain't." ...In other words, you walk up to the casino host and say, "I'm a Blackjack card counter", and they reply, "dinners on us tonight sir, do you have your room yet?" |
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Kimura Special user 519 Posts |
Yes, maybe "encourage" was the wrong word to use, but silverking summed what I wanted to say up better than I could.
To put it another way though, if blackjack was truly beatable on a large scale, do you really think casinos would still feature it? |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
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On 2009-03-03 18:28, Louis.P.M wrote: Beat the Dealer was the second book to seriously discuss card counting. It was the first to have a completely workable system (albeit a difficult one) for beating the game. Quote:
...in a casino the worst thing that can happen to a card counter is to have the dealer put the cut card in the middle of the shoe, hence denying a running count (Since the best true count will have to be divided by 4, in a 8 decks game). It's true that cutting off 4 decks out of 8 hurts the counter to point of making the game virtually unplayable, but "denying a running count" is a non-sensical statement. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Louis.P.M Loyal user Montreal, Canada 218 Posts |
Re-reading my last sentence, I agree it doesn't mean anything.
I'll better rephrase my thoughts: "the worst thing that can happen to a card counter is to have the dealer put the cut card in the middle of the shoe. This will hinder his strategy since the true count will have to be divided by 4 at best, in a 8 decks game." |
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Enzo Loyal user CA 243 Posts |
Quote:
Enzo, counting card allows you to deviate from standard play. If you screw up somewhere you will start doing the opposite of what you should be doing. So no, the odds would not go back to "normal" they would be against you. But like Lobowolf pointed out, the edge you get from counting card isn't very big at all. Sorry, matu, but this, as anyone with a basic notion of probability theory should know, is not true. It's a nice "probabilistic sophism". Counting increases the probability of you making the right choice, because you can say that a certain value will arrive with a certain probability, different from the 1/13 it should have (it becomes a "conditional probability"). If you miscount, the correlation disappears and the probability is unconditional again. Any choice, whether it is based on wrong counting or on the position of the planets, leads to success with standard unconditional probability (this is what I meant with "normal" probability). Now of course, as Silverking and others correctly point out, this normal probability is in favor of the casino, and you'll probably loose and make the casino happy. Quote:
...In other words, you walk up to the casino host and say, "I'm a Blackjack card counter", and they reply, "dinners on us tonight sir, do you have your room yet?" I have to try that next time I'm in a casino. Thanks for the explanation. What you say definitely makes sense. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2009-03-04 21:28, Kimura wrote: Absolutely, because just because it is "beatable" doesn't mean it will be beaten. Which is exactly the case. It's not like bowling, where the average is black & white, and you won't gamble against someone better without a handicap. You can play all year and not have any idea whether you're getting lucky with a 0.5% disadvantage, or getting unlucky with a 0.5% edge. This is pretty much the case. Bad players assume their wins are because they're good, and their losses are because they're unlucky, and they keep playing because they've heard, rightly, that the game is, in principle, beatable. THe casinos aren't complaining.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Bret Maverick Regular user U.S.A. 185 Posts |
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by sodman12: If some places are obtainable, then what is the best resource for gathering information on the topic? I know its basically math, but surely some fineness does come into play at some point? As recommended above, Dr. Thorp’s Beat the Dealer and BJ21.com are good resources, but in my view Arnold “The Bishop of Blackjack” Snyder’s web site is a treasure trove of gambling information and history in general, and for blackjack specifically: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/ Yes, Kimura, "encourage" may be an exaggeration when describing casino managements' feelings for card counters, especially since the statement infers that all casinos welcome card counters with open arms. That is simply not true, although the trend in barring every counter is, thankfully, diminishing more every year, particularly in this economic downturn wherein the competition for player patronage is fierce. While there have been several good articles written over the course of the last few years chastising the use of “counter-counters” to identify and 86 every player categorized as a card counter, I can attest from personal observations that there are still many cavemen in nice suits clutching dearly to their tired old notions that every single card counter is a threat to the bottom line. This, of course, is sheer nonsense. There will always be a need to identify the limited number of real expert card counters and either ban them, or use countermeasures such as early shuffle-up, cutting to half the shoe, lowering maximum wagering limits, etc. to reduce their advantage and “encourage” them to leave, but a casino personnel’s wasting time by watching, identifying and countering against the average card counter whose play is no better than the typical square John tourist, and often worse than a half-smart tourist using a basic strategy card, is simply not cost-effective. How many of the world’s thousands of card counters are really in the league of Arnold Sndyer, Stanford Wong and Tommy Hyland & associates? In truth, a great many of the average, self-proclaimed card counters are those who brag to their friends about how they study hard and beat the computer sims all year long, venturing into casinos only a few times a year to the casinos’ delight. The wholesale implementation of dealing procedures intended to thwart card counters costs the casinos more in lost hands per hour than even the above-average counters could ever beat them for. Dr. Thorp’s book Beat the Dealer probably did more to elevate blackjack’s popularity and profitability than any other factor. Instead of fearing, spying-on, intimidating and shooing the “recreational counters” out the door, casinos should recognize, and many are, that the majority of card counters are valuable customers. As I’ve stated in other threads, I am acquainted with several of the men that I consider the top game protection experts around, and I want to make absolutely clear that what I am about to state is not mistakenly attributed to any of them. The fact remains that there are a number of so-called protection experts who use fear to promote their services by perpetuating the myth that there are cheats, card counters, and other advantage players seated at every table. It’s good to see that many casinos are wising-up, but I don’t think that they have reached the point of comping card counters with meals and lodging upon arrival. Here’s an article sharing the viewpoint of a modern-thinking casino manager: Quote: Casinos & Card Counters: Using a Vice to Squeeze a Pimple
"If all a man can count on is finally pushing up the grass, when I do I'll lay you odds that grass is mine!" - Theme Song For The T.V. Series BRET MAVERICK, by Ed Bruce
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
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Just wear a bright colored shirt, shorts, and black socks with black shoes when you introduce yourself to the host. You'll be riding high on the comp-wagon for the duration |
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Enzo Loyal user CA 243 Posts |
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Just wear a bright colored shirt, shorts, and black socks with black shoes when you introduce yourself to the host. Unfortunately, over here they don't let people into casinos dressed like that. |
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The great Gumbini Inner circle 3062 Posts |
You may not want to actually go to a casino card counting. They have so many ways to catch a pro it's unbelievable. Let me say yes you will be welcomed as a card counter ---as long as you lose that is. But start winning? Well you'll see what I mean. You will feel a lot of things, but "welcomed" will not be one of them.
However card counting is a lot of fun and you can do so many tricks with it. Good magic to all, Eric |
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