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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts 
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Very interesting. "Schmul" sounds a lot like "Schwul", which is German for gay. Today, in 2009.
It could very well be that the term "Schmul" is somehow lost to history. But now I'm interested. Gotta find out what it means. Might take a while. I've had one or two beers since my last post. 
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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"Stone", if I may be so boldly familiar...
1. From my perspective you didn't waste your time. That is some of the best reading I have done in a long time, copied to my archive file for sure. Thank you muchly. 2. Are you saying you DIDN'T have a beer while you did this? If yes, what were you thinking? Thanks again, really neat! Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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Oh yes, thanks for all your work, Stone. The link is fascinating, and so is your translation, especially the parts you are uncertain about.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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Glad y'all appreciated it.
I was able to find out that "Schmul" is a short form of "Samuel". I was unable to find out if the short form was used pejoratively or not. And Jim, of course you can call me Stone...or Stoney or even Jeff. Have a beer: :stout: I think I'll have one myself. :stout: |
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Todd Robbins V.I.P. New York 2922 Posts
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When the song was brought to Louis Armstrong to record, he passed on it. It didn't do anything for him and he didn't thing he could get much out of it. When the context of the song was explained to him, he realized that Mack was very much like some of the toughs he knew when he was growing up in New Orleans. It gave him a hook, he recorded it and it became a hit for him.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-03-28 13:42, stoneunhinged wrote: Am I allowed to feel clever at this point 
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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Yes, you are allowed to feel clever.
But then, we all knew you were clever. This gives you an "extra clever" notch on your hat! I find the last lines particularly interesting. "Woke up and had been violated" is extremely provocative. Violated how? If murdered, how did she wake up? And perhaps the better translation here is "reward" She woke up and had been violated, Mackie, what was your reward? Also provocative is that such a contextual song became a jazz hit. But then, Todd has already given us a line of thought on that. Truth be told, I've been singing this song in my head for two days now. I hope that doesn't make me a monster. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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"Violated" is such an interesting word. Is it the only English word that the German text evokes?
Do you think "reward" is better than price? Does "Preis" have Biblical overtones? Like maybe with Judas? John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2889 Posts
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While Brecht certainly wrote Mack The Knife, I think the original artist to perform it was Lotte Lenya. (I have trouble equating one of the main bad guys in "From Russia With Love" with musical theater, but there it is.
Here's Ms. Lenya, who has a lovely voice also singing it in German. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPG9GcykPIY
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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So, is Macheath a typical german name or does it have some other significance?
Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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boynextdoor Regular user Lancaster 129 Posts
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Have you guys seen the Sammy Davis Jr. version?!?
Trapeze above the Grand Canyon. Be impressed.
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boynextdoor Regular user Lancaster 129 Posts
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I really don't like Lotte Lenya's voice. I don't know if it's some kind of time period specific style of singing or maybe that mixed with a cultural thing, but I really LOVE Ute Lemper's version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiAhizgRtjY
Trapeze above the Grand Canyon. Be impressed.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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Yes, I really like the Ute Lemper version too. The correct Url for that is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yddNtR5zfaU&feature=related but the ALabama Song is great too. Lotte Lenya was the wife of the Moritat's composer, Kurt Weill. BTW, can anyone confirm that that was really Brecht's voice? I just have a feeling that that maybe mistaken.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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boynextdoor Regular user Lancaster 129 Posts
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*slaps forehead*
Yes. What he said.
Trapeze above the Grand Canyon. Be impressed.
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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In answer to the questions:
MacHeath is not a particularly German name. I suppose, without looking it up, that MacHeath was a real murderer that Brecht based the text on.
"Violated" is, once again, an interpretive choice. Defiled, disgraced, raped. I think the English "violate" is suitably vague, just like the German. I was thinking it's just another way of saying she had been murdered, but I guess if she had been murdered she wouldn't have woken up. What a strange song to have become a jazz classic! |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
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And John, I forgot the question about "Preis". That goes way beyond my German ability. I did, however, do a quick online check of the Luther translation of the passage in the Bible about Judas and the word is not used there.
In today's German--which might be quite different from Brecht's in this regard--no one asks about "price" when talking about goods and services; rather, they talk about what something "costs". "Preis" (sounds just like the English "price") is usually used in the sense of "prize", as in "award". That's why I thought maybe "reward" is better. But I'm unsure. Now, was that really Brecht? I think so. The same recording is used in documentaries and such. That doesn't prove anything, of course, but it's the best one can do. This is so fun and interesting I'm tempted to try translating the song for real...with rhyming and everything. What I find MOST fascinating is the Bobby Darin version, which is almost perverse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dDs_N3kGQk He could be singing "New York, New York" or something. Very strange. I think the text is the same as what Louis Armstrong used. Lastly, I found some interesting reading about the song, here: http://mobydicks.com/lecture/Brechthall/messages/70.html |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-03-28 21:39, mandarin wrote: Brecht based his text on the 18th century play The Beggar's Opera by John Gay. Gay set the play in London (as did Brecht) so the Scottish-sounding Macheath isn't so surprising. I checked Bain's Clans and Tartans of Scotland and didn't find any references to the name MacHeath, so I guess that Gay made the name up. If you'd like to read The Beggar's Opera, there is a free etext at Project Gutenberg. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-03-29 07:03, stoneunhinged wrote: Thanks Jeff. I've got some reading and viewing to do. This is great stuff. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-03-29 10:42, Magnus Eisengrim wrote: Hmm. If I'd followed Jeff's link above, I would have seen that this was already established. Sorry for the redundancy and repetition.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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The Mark Blitzstein English translation is the most well known, but others swear by Eric Bentley's as more authentic. I'm not a German speaker so I don't know.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Posted: Mar 27, 2009 10:32 pm 
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