Noble1, why would I do a torn corner with a mismade bill routine? It clouds up the routine and doesn't fit all that well with what essentially is a bill transformation. Yes, you can use a torn corner subtlety instead of the SN but aesthetically, it's much pretty with a full bill to full bill transformation. Let's go a little further, if the torn corner principal is equally as good then explain to me why most parlour and stage performances of bill to impossible location which incorporates the torn corner principal still includes the SN match as well within the routine? Again, the importance of the SN subtlety is for naught in close up/walk around situations. You honestly don't need it because there's really not enough time for such nuances since these nuances are better appreciated when you're trying to, as Floyd mentions, play out the effect as a big effect. In such a situation, you incorporate pointing out the SN throughout the routine so that the audience may remember it along with you (maybe have different sections of the audience remember different sections of the SN). Max designs a lot of his products for the parlour and stage workers thus many may not appreciate the reasoning behind a product such as the Ultimate Mismade Bill.

To touch on MJ Marrs, I wholeheartedly agree with the acknowledgement that spectators remember and keep track of a lot more than what we give them credit for. Something that magician's forget is that the lay audience only has one thing to go on when they try to figure out effects (and if you believe that most spectators will not try to figure out a effect no matter how magical, then you are a bit delusional), that certain little something is called logic. They will go through all the logical solutions in their heads and find the one with the best match, usually they would land on the correct solution if we don't drop red herrings or build walls to stop them from backtracking further than what we want them to remember about the process (dirty word but if you think about it, everything we do no matter how entertaining, has a process to it). Something like the SN subtlety and torn corner principal are two of the walls we use. Sometimes we lose track of the why's to the what's in what we do. We learn an effect, learn the subtleties, but we never go back to analyze the structure and the reasoning behind the structure.

Serial Number who cares look at the demo the camera has to zoom in just to see the numbers . This is exactly what the spectator will have to do zoom in to see the numbers . To me it makes no sense I will stick with my 15.00 mismade bill just my opinion here.
Tophatter.

Philistines!

Obviously, Max's market does not include those of you who don't understand the value or necessity of having a bill with matching serial numbers. People who perform for the caliber of audience that Max is performing for, where the people are used to the best, know that items of this nature are born from experience.

Each of these bills is re-worked by hand, so that they look absolutely perfect. I would challenge anyone here who thinks these are too expensive to try to do the same thing. You will quickly understand the pricing of these bills. This is extremely labor intensive.

When you are performing for intimate groups of discerning spectators, and that is the way you earn your living, the cost of the props is of far less importance than the impact they have on an audience. Maybe when you are strolling or "table hopping" (what a hideous image!), you don't have time to spend with your audience, and you don't think that they notice these small anomalies, such as mismatched serial numbers. However, audiences are not as stupid as you think they are. You might be surprised at what they say when you walk away from the table.

Remember what it says at the top of Max's web site -- Magic Products Designed For the Discerning Performer. These aren't your mass produced junk from overseas. If you can't afford them, and you don't think you need them, then don't buy them.

If you can't afford it, don't bash it just because it's beyond your financial reach. Perhaps you would earn more if your props were better!

Certainly, you can do this without having these special bills. On the other hand, the next time you get busted for the serial numbers not matching -- when some sharp-eyed spectator catches you in a moment of weakness, remember this post.

Tophatter, it's obvious that you do not have a clue as to what playing big in a parlour or stage environment means. It's also obvious that you didn't really read my post as I did suggest how to use the SN subtlety to good use in those environments (the only real environments that it's suitable for, walk around/table hopping is overkill with the Ultimate Mismade Bill). If you're doing this in a walk around environment, yes, of course you don't need the SN subtlety. Your mismade bill routine is also not going to be a real performance piece, instead it's most probably going to be a quickie piece that lasts no more than 2 minutes. Different props for different environments.

Look back to Rick's post on seeing Paul Gertner performing the Mismade Bill using the SN subtlety for a TV appearance. There's a reason he used the SN subtlety, it's because in that performing environment he's not performing it as a quickie but as a fully fleshed out and slower paced piece with a lot of eyes on him. In this kind of environment, you're not going to be doing a wham bam thank you maam quickie as you would in walk around situations. In walk around situations the chances are good that you are long gone by the time they finish trying to wrap their heads around it. In other words, parlour, stage, TV, you have a LOT more eyes watching you and a lot more brains thinking logically about everything thus the SN bit is a clever bit of psychology which amounts to a brick wall that the audience will not be able to get past. Here's the problem with the criticism for Ultimate Mismade Bill, those criticising I would wager has never really thought of or tried to perform the Mismade Bill as a slower paced performance. All they understand is "it's visual, it gets great reactions" and most likely they are performing in walk around/table hopping sitatuations. I would wager that they have not really considered what the Ultimate Mismade Bill is REALLY good for.

It's not something that every person that performs the Mismade Bill needs, far from that. Most folks will not need this version but there are many out there which this would fit quite well into their act. Let's make a very large analogy here, if I was to want to perform the saw the lady in half illusion in walk around situations, I would most probably use playing cards but if I was to do it in parlour or stage, I would be going all out with the box and the saw since the situation calls for it.

As a final example, Max is selling a new close up table. It is a beautiful piece of work. It has good mobility, breaks down nicely, quite solid, and the finish is professional and outstanding all the way. Am I ever going to buy one? Nope. Why? Because I'm never in a situation that calls for it. Am I going to trash it because I don't need it? Nope. Why? Because I acknowledge that it's a great table and for situations that calls for such a working table it ranks amongst the best.

But then, unless you pay them for the bill at the beginning, you will then have to give them your expensive, matching bill at the end. correct?

s

Exactly. If you go with Floyd's thinking than he'd say just make another final switch. Ridiculous, and over handled for what should be a simple, direct, effect.

Ethically, does this version belong to Max Krause or Paul Gertner? Is it a new effect because the matching serial number is on duplicate bill that is mismade instaed of a different denomination?

That would be up to you, I am just saying there are options.

If you think something as simple and direct as a bill switch is Ridiculous and over handled, then that is your personal preference and you should not do it that way. I on the other hand consider it a method that is both simple and direct, if I do it once or twice or three times during a routine, is no different then doing any other slight of hand for the outcome I desire. But then your millage may very.
I do agree with the KISS method, and to me a bill switch is very simple indeed.

I remember at a convention seeing Michael Weber borrow a one amd change it to a hundred that he gave to the spectator who looked surprised. Weber told him "No problem keep it, I make them all the time."

Floyd my point wasn't that I think a bill switch isn't simple or direct. I apologise for not being more clear. What I consider overhandling in this case is doing the move several times, over a very short period, without any misdirection, in a routine where they are staring straight at your hands. A bill switch may be simple indeed, as you put it, but doing it over and over when they're burning your hands in a trick where you want them to believe there's not a change but that it's the very same bill (the serial number idea) I think is not a good idea. But then you mileage may vary.

Mumford,
I understand what your saying, and its all performer preference as far as I am concerned. I am in no way going to tell you how you should or should not do an effect, nor will I tell you that this is a gimmick you must have.

I am no spring chicken, and to tell you the truth, I find some of the ideas on over handling very amusing. Let me give you an example, your all done,, you then slip the bill into your pocket, you say "hey if it can do that I would be crazy to give it back". Go on with your show take the heat off the bill. Do the switch give their bill back after another effect its that simple really but is it for everyone? is it too bold? I don't know. Again, this is a utility prop not a method or an effect. It is up to you the performer to decide how you will handle the bill and do your moves.
What I have found over the years is that there are some who will step outside the box and do amazing feet's of magic that breaks all the rules. There are some who stay within the rules of conjuring where it is nice and safe. You will find that those who think different does not necessarily mean they are wrong. The misdirection you speak of not having is there, you the magician should be able to employee misdirection at anytime it is needed.
All this takes me back to my thoughts on Max bill, it may only be for a select group of performers who sees the potential of using such a gimmick.
I don't mean to trifle with your thoughts on magic, I honor and respect what you have learned to this point. But know we are all still learning and there may be something new here your missing. Again our millage will very and that's what makes being a magician an art form.

--Floyd

Hey All,

Once again I find myself shaking my head at just how so many people can judge and formulate their opinions on things that they have never personally had the experience of using. In all the threads that I read here regarding reviews of products, so many launch out with their speculation and harsh criticism even though they don't own whatever it is they are criticizing.

Here is a thought. Instead of complaining about why something doesn't work, sucks, is overpriced, poorly made come back with your own invention that supercedes whatever it is you feel is lacking.

In regards to my demo video. I was trying very hard to keep my hands in frame as to not "cheat the camera" out of respect for my customers. If the end result is "The worst bill switch in the history of bill switches" than some people need to get out a little more often. This was never my focus. My focus was to show a mismade bill effect where the serial number would not change throughout the entire performance. However, I have remedied that issue by placing the focus where it should have been and the video now shows that.

As far as pricing is concerned. Each and every person that creates an effect has invested countless hours, financial investment, several prototypes and who knows how many other things to bring what you see as a final product. Some choose to do mass production overseas, some do production locally, and some choose to make their products by hand. Every product that I produce or market has been made or assembled by hand except for a few that I market for friends.

I CARE ABOUT QUALITY. I CARE ABOUT RELIABILITY. I CARE ABOUT PRACTICALITY.

My whole focus is to produce a quality product While it's not always inexpensive, it will be something that is a true "worker"

As a buying customer myself I want to know that I am getting my moneys worth when it comes to the effects that I buy. As a creator and seller I care about my customers getting their moneys worth and true value out of what I create. I am willing to bend over backwards to make sure that you, the customer is pleased because that is ultimately going to benefit both of us. You because you have some wonderful and reliable equipment and this in turn will make you that much more likely to buy from me again which makes me want to create many more wonderful things for you.

If this is not what you are looking for and would prefer to have effects that fall apart after the first week, are poor in workmanship, have no entertainment value or winds up in a drawer after the first week you have it, then please choose to buy elsewhere. This is not a path I choose to follow.

In regards to who came up with the idea of duplicate serial numbers after reading Markmiller's post. I immediately called Paul and had a very nice conversation with him. He explained that he had done a routine with a $1 to $1000 bill on "That's Incredible" and also his method for doing so which did involve duplicate serial numbers. I explained to him my method and will be crediting him in my upcoming book. He is an extremely clever thinker and though our methods vary he still is the original owner of the duplicate serial number concept. Thank you Mark for letting me know about that. I have absolutely no desire to take credit for something that is not mine. The method and technique that I use is much different from what he was doing and I have developed several different effects using my concept, not just the mismade idea.

Finally,

Each and every bill that I do is handmade by me. I understand if you feel that it is not worth it for you to invest in my products. I too feel my time is too valuable to give away and I will not take time away from family and friends unless I am being fairly compensated for it.

Keep this in mind the next time a client tells you "I think you are too expensive"


Max

If you spent all that time talking about the serial number, and then you switch it out before you return the "borrowed" bill, don't you think it'll be noticed that the bill you return isn't the one that was turned inside out?

to clarify, I'm not judging, just trying to understand what presentations are possible and practical.

Kissdadookie , I perform for many types of audiences large & small . All I am saying is the serial number is really not important to me . The magic happens when the bill is magically changed into another bill or mismade . The shock vaule here will cancel out any need for the spectator to even ask to see the serial number . If it works for you fine have a blast with it ! It's just not my cup of tea for 75.00
Best ,
Tophatter

Sponge,
My above statement was only an example of how you can simply take the heat off the bill, I am not giving methods for how I do things just example of how you can take the heat off something very simple and how it will sometimes be bold but work.

The SN is a subtlety, how you present or use it is up to you. If you need help with you presentation, I am sure Max or many of the other magicians who use subtlety's to enhance their routine would be willing to give you a hand. Since I do only parlor and stage I can not tell you what would work for you in a closeup or street performance. Nor do I know where and how you perform if you need help PM me and I would be willing to answer any of your questions. But what is practical for me may not be for you, my style and the fact that I am comedy performer allows me to do things others who are not cant.
As I stated in another post about SN I would not make a huge deal about it. Myself I use simple taps near the SN and suggestions that they should keep an eye on this bill. Make sure their eyes lock in on the SN for a moment then do the Mis Made. In earlier posts I gave examples of how it can be used to play bigger on stage with a pad of paper.
Max has given you a subtlety in his product, how you use it or if you do is up to you the performer. Methodology is a funny thing, each person will mold it within their persona and style of performing so as you can see we could debate the usage of this bill all day and night long. For some it will work for others it wont, bottom line.

Do you know what your buying before you buy it, in the case of Max stuff YES! So ask yourself can you use this gimmick? If your answer is yes, then buy it from Max and I can say you will be happy with the quality of what you get. How you use it is 100% up too you.

--Floyd

Tophatter, read your original post. You were not in any way shape or form saying that it's not your cup of tea. Instead you were basically telling folks "who cares about the SN. It's useless." You fail to understand that a mismade bill routine can be played out quickly or played more drawn out. Yes there's shock value in the mismade bill when the bill changes but like I said in my earlier post, magician's usually stop their brains right there, at the end of the effect. In other words, they just run through the motions. Running through the motions works just fine becauase honestly, chances are you're just regurgitating whatever you read in the instructions with a few minor touches on the presentation (usually just patter for the sake of patter) but most magicians never go back and try to truly understand why something works the way it does. I feel that this is missing out on the whole aspect of performing for an audience, as a performer you have the responsibility of giving them the best experience during an effect as well as leaving them with an even deeper experience AFTER your show. I'm sure folks love your mismade bill but people also can't tell the difference between good and bad magic but in the end, the good type of magic leaves a longer and better impression with the audience. I'm not saying that your routine is bad but I'm willing to bank on it that you present it as a quickie just as most people do. Either that or you've really only performed it the quite standard way of using it as a close-up effect. Go back in your memories and remember the time when Copperfield performed the torn and restored baseball card or even Mislead, those were very small effects that most if not all other performers perform as quickies yet Copperfield presented them as true performance pieces. Needless to say that Copperfield does it much better yet many of us fail to grasp the situation beyond just the effect.

It's not about how quickly or slowly you perform the effect. it's only about eliminating any doubt about what they are witnessing. You don't have to call attention to the serial number. However, you can hand them the bill to thoroughly examine and if they happen to study the serial number and you restore the bill and hand it back to them they will be able to verify it is the same bill they saw in its MISMADE condition thus hopefully eliminating the possibility of a switch. That was all I was trying to achieve with this effect was to take it one step further to what it would look like if you could really distort a bill.

That's it plain and simple.

Max

Heading up to MA this weekend Max?

Sorry Kissdadookie just saw your message. No, I'm not. I am working on my book and I have a few projects to complete this weekend. Are you headed up there?