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ppuna New user Thunder Bay Canada 19 Posts |
Yesterday I came across the video promo for "Pandora's Box" which is available from Jay Sankey. It's an excellent, powerful effect. But upon seeing it, I feel I should respond. Because it's not his. David Harkey came out with "Mover and Shaker" in the 1980s. I know this because that is when I bought it from him. He has continued to offer it at his lectures over these many years. There is a difference in the construction of the internal gimmick (with Harkey's, you can turn it off and on at will), and the "anomaly" in the case itself is in a slightly different place, but it is still David's. I emailed him last night and sent the video along as well. I won't give all the details of his response, but he did express his disappointment with Jay.
My purpose here is not to cause any problems, but I am a stickler for proper credit so I felt I had to speak up. |
puggo Inner circle 2022 Posts |
This does not appear to be on Jay's website anymore (unless I missed it). Maybe it has been pulled.
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puggo Inner circle 2022 Posts |
Nope, it is here:
http://www.sankeymagic.com/detail.aspx?ID=48192 I have to confess, that although I am not a fan of Jay's 'noises', and some of his comedy, I find it hard to believe that he would knowingly rip someone off, and that he wouldn't do at least some research into originality prior to release |
ppuna New user Thunder Bay Canada 19 Posts |
I found it hard to believe too, but David says that he ran it by Jay years ago and that Jay wasn't impressed until he tried it for himself. The bottom line is that Jay must have known and that David marketed the effect/gimmick long before Jay made "Pandora's Box" available. I personally want to give Jay the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he just forgot having been told by David .... I've "invented" a few things only to realize later that I had read them in a book in the past. I like Jay and hope this is the case with him. The next step is up to him.
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Ardmac New user Gippsland Vic. Australia 20 Posts |
Hey ppuna
I'm sad to see your question taken to an open forum rather than to the man himself. That at least, would have seemed to smack less of 'tall poppy syndrome' or 'plain gossip' Did you afford Jay Sankey the same courtesy as your friend David Harkey, and write to him first, privately expressing your thoughts before placing him on trial here at the Café I wonder ? Perhaps my ideas on 'the right thing' are wrong, just that Down Under, we like to know we have given a bloke 'a fair go' before we hold him up to open public censure and debate about his honesty. I only reply to you here, rather than privately as you've 'dished it out' here, and I wonder, can you take your 'doubts' being questioned as genuine yourself ? I note your original post says you are a stickler for proper credit. I just copied the quote below exactly from Jays web site. Please read it. Doesn't this suggest another 'origin' of where Jay got his basis from ? (The underlining of Walton's is mine) 'I was familiar with Walton's original idea, but I knew Jay was going to take it to a killer level. I ordered it and I'm so glad I did!Borrowing an earring and making it appear in the case is my new favourite opening routine. Instant rapport with the audience!"-Len G.' 'Till now I've had the utmost respect from the way differences are handled here. But we all know once the finger of doubt has been pointed, doubt always remains. I would have thought professionalism was a street running in all our directions. Poorly thought-out commentary can damage a persons reputation for ever !! I hope people can believe your motives were pure, and just impulsive, & clumsy, rather than just damaging finger pointing 'cause you saw an opportunity. I'll try to keep an open mind, - as I would have liked you to do for your fellow magi Jay. If anything you've written can be fairly questioned by any open, honest, enquiring mind, then perhaps the next step is actually up to YOU ?? Particularly as you state openly, 'you like Jay'
IF you can fill the unforgiving minute
with 60 seconds worth of distance run then yours is the Earth & everything that's in it,.. |
mantel Special user 922 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-04-14 14:15, ppuna wrote: Your above sentence creates unjust criticism of Jay. Anyways "Pandora's Box" is essentially "Nestegg" without the matchbox. "Nestegg" was released on Jay's Revolutionary Coin Magic. Regards, Mantel |
ppuna New user Thunder Bay Canada 19 Posts |
Last night I emailed Jay regarding this effect and he responded today. He recalls that he was shown the Walton idea a few years after he got into magic and that various magicians have substantiated the Walton connection. He also points to his crediting Walton in his promo material for the effect. He asked that I relay this information in my post on the Café. There are a few things I would like to say and then lay this topic to rest. First and foremost it was never my intention to accuse Jay of being underhanded or unethical. Yes, I did wonder aloud why Jay wasn’t aware of David’s marketing the effect for these many years. But I realize that this was without warrant. Because there was no way of knowing unless you had attended one of David’s lectures. He would only sell “Mover and Shaker” there. So it was a poorly formed assumption on my part. I apologize for my lack of clear thinking. I can see that, given the gimmick, it is feasible that two creative individuals could come up with the same application. Which must have happened here. I must also comment on Jay’s response to all this. If anyone has the right to lash out, it would be Jay. He could have given me a real tongue-lashing, and rightly so, but he chose to take the high road and responded in a civil, classy manner. That’s the kind of man he is. And now, looking back on my posts, I think they say more about me than about Jay. Ardmac pointed out my terrible lack of judgement and I thank him for that. It was a wake-up call. It’s good to have such level-headed contributors to the forum to keep us hotheads in line. I reacted in a knee-jerk fashion letting my emotions overtake my clear thinking. I only saw an effect that I have been doing for twenty some odd years being offered by someone other than the person I had bought it from. I didn’t seek out the whole picture. So, finally, I want to apologize to the forum members for any unwarranted mistrust I may have inadvertently caused, because that wasn’t my intent. But mostly, I want to apologize to Jay. I always have and will continue to respect him for his creativity and integrity. He deserves no less.
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puggo Inner circle 2022 Posts |
Ppuna,
quote "And now, looking back on my posts, I think they say more about me than about Jay..." quote Actually, I think that your post above shows a lot of character on your part, and certainly get's my respect. Mistakes can easily be made, but putting them right requires guts. Best, Charlie |
Ardmac New user Gippsland Vic. Australia 20 Posts |
Hi Peter.
Wow !! Goodonya. You have seriously bolstered my faith in people. It takes a 'Bl''dy Big Man' to genuinely look at his actions & correct them the way you have. You took a risk that Jay may have rejected your self censure & explanation. I'm pleased he was able to see that your underlying reasons for comment were ethically motivated. I am compelled to acknowledge your courage in sticking up for the man you thought deserved the original credit for Pandora's Box idea in the first place, & for your professionalism in your repairs with Jay Sankey. Mate, I am so very impressed with your honesty open, & forthright PM to me. Some- times we can all get a bit jaded with our human frailties. You have just cleaned up so much negative feeling & re-shined my view of people, which had been getting a little duller.- THANKYOU I'm glad to be in the same Café' with you.
IF you can fill the unforgiving minute
with 60 seconds worth of distance run then yours is the Earth & everything that's in it,.. |
ppuna New user Thunder Bay Canada 19 Posts |
Thank you all (including Jay by email)for your kind words. This has been a humbling, telling and, ultimately, positive experience for me. I will try to live up to the impressions you have so kindly shared.
Peter |
Ron Vergilio Special user Murrieta, CA 835 Posts |
Just to clarify, Pandoras Box is a little different then Nest Egg. Pandoras Box has a built in 'rattler' and still allows for the complete deck to be placed in the card case.
So, when the item is vanished, the box can be shaken and something is heard in the box before the loading is done. Ron |
houdini Loyal user N.E. Kansas 203 Posts |
I don't own Pandoras Box but I have The Vox Box and this is a very similar effect. I love the Vox Box and it amazes audiances all the time.
Jim. Thats me on the left,Everyone should know the other guy!
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