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MagicSanta
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Pirats have arms!

Balducci, mi amigo, unless they changed the law here in Nevada if you have a carry permit you are allowed to carry any number of guns and as much ammo as you like. So you can walk around like Blackbeard the Pirate (see that? pirates!) with a dozen pistols and an uzi in your jacket. Cool huh? If you recall here in the Reno area I know of four, count 'em, four cases where people have stopped crimes by shooting the culprits and in one case a guy shot a man who had just killed two people and was reloading. In the bay area I never heard of a single case where someone used a gun to protect themself and I spent 30+ years in the bay area and two years here!
EsnRedshirt
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MagicSanta, that just goes to show that you can't substitute anecdotal evidence for statistical evidence.

If you look at the crime rates, in 2007, CA had 6.2 murders per 100k people. Nevada had 7.5 per 100k people. Robberies- CA had 193.0, NV had 270.3

I guess it's a good thing all those people in Nevada can carry weapons around, since there's so much crime for them to protect themselves from.

Source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

-------
And yes, I'm playing with statistics, as well as comparing apples to oranges. More fun- if you check that site above and look in specific counties, you'll find these statistics: turns out total violent crime (for 2005) in SF per 100k people was 798.9, with 12.8 cases of murder/manslaughter, while Reno only had 741.9/100k, and only 4.4 murders. On the other hand, for aggravated assault (assault with a deadly weapon), SF had 352.3/100k, Reno had 478.1/100k- over 100 more per 100k. Which one could argue is not surprising in a city where people carry firearms- if you get in a fight and all you have are fists, there's no gun to pull out to enhance the criminal charges.

But, like I said, we could cherry-pick statistics all day, as well as toss out anecdotal evidence to our heart's content, and we wouldn't really prove anything one way or the other.

-Erik
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* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2009-04-17 14:45, MagicSanta wrote:
Pirats have arms!



It's legs and eyes that they lack.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
MagicSanta
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Erik, why would you think I'd question the crime statistics? Nevada has an uneducated transient population where the bay area has an educated and rather stationary population. Nevada has many jobs that the uneducated and inexperienced can do working at the resorts and tourist type industries which means there are communities of underpaid people who tend to be more prone to violence while the bay area is mixed and has forced out the poor population for the most part. I know in San Jose there was no 'ghetto' or bad area, the only people who could afford to live there were not out burgling. Nevada is mostly rural and there are far and away more people with guns than in the bay area. Las Vegas is one of the cities with the highest crime rates and the number of people with weapons in the country. They don't have the violent crime rate of some cities but they make up for it in robberies etc..

The biggest difference between here and the bay area is because of the much larger population there are more extremely violent individuals, like in SF or Oakland, Richmond, and those guys slant things. In Reno the police can spot problems quicker and they can and will break things up.

What I said was in all the years I lived in San Jose I never heard of anyone using a gun to protect themselves, doesn't mean it didn't happen, just can't recall it happening. Here I heard about it four times but then again if you get in an accident it might make the evening news cuz it is a small population.
JRob
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Quote:
On 2009-04-17 09:41, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-04-17 08:41, JRob wrote:

This is twice now that you have trotted out this story in an attempt to discredit concealed carry permit holders.

What I posted and what I was saying have nothing to do with any attempt to discredit carry permit holders. That is in your mind.

I've never said anything against people having the right to bear arms for personal safety, except that I believe there should be some reasonable limit on the scope of arms they are permitted to carry on the street (e.g., like no rocket launchers, no automatic weapons with 1000 rounds of ammo being dragged in a cart behind them on a sidewalk, etc.).

Remind me, what does any of this have to do with pirates?

About as much as the story from St. Matthews did in the first place. Seriously, my response can't be any more irrelevant than what I was responding to.
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nums
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Quote:
On 2009-04-17 14:45, MagicSanta wrote:
Pirats have arms!

Balducci, mi amigo, unless they changed the law here in Nevada if you have a carry permit you are allowed to carry any number of guns and as much ammo as you like. So you can walk around like Blackbeard the Pirate (see that? pirates!) with a dozen pistols and an uzi in your jacket. Cool huh? If you recall here in the Reno area I know of four, count 'em, four cases where people have stopped crimes by shooting the culprits and in one case a guy shot a man who had just killed two people and was reloading. In the bay area I never heard of a single case where someone used a gun to protect themself and I spent 30+ years in the bay area and two years here!


While you are correct that you can carry guns with a permit, I am pretty sure you are not allowed to carry an UZI.

As far as the 4 cases in 2 years vs. 0 cases in 30 years please keep in mind that California is a MAY issue state just like Maryland. May issue means they decide if you have a need to carry and if they say no the answer is no. Whereas a SHALL issue state MUST issue the permit as long as the applicant passes the required background checks.

I am amazed that you know of 4 cases considoring you think everyone who pulls a gun would be a quivering bowl of jelly (like santas belly) and unable to use a weapon effectivly.

NUMS
MagicSanta
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Gee, I always thought it was cuz the bay area was full of wussies but okay, I'll accept whatever you say. I used the name uzi cuz I don't know any other names.
landmark
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Should one be allowed to carry an UZI?
MagicSanta
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I was in Haifa Israel taking the tram to the higher level and saw a lovely woman soldier and she had some kind of automatic rifle...if everyone with an uzi looks that cute then the answer is yes. They shouldn't be allowed to have bullets in it but carrying one is fine with me.
Tom Cutts
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Santa, you are sadly mistaken and have spread gross inaccuracies about San Jose. Reseasrch East San Jose to dispute your ignorant claims.
EsnRedshirt
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Gotta agree with Tom. My sister and brother-in-law lived in East San Jose for a while. It wasn't the nicest neighborhood. (In fact, their house was broken into- the only thing stolen: his guns. It had to have been someone who knew them.)
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MagicSanta
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East San Jose is one heck of a lot better than it was 25 years ago. My claims come from living in San Jose (you gents are in the crappier parts of the bay area), my wife worked in East San Jose as a teacher and perhaps you should go visit and see the homes there now. East San Jose is one of the older neighborhoods that use to be mostly hispanics and still has a lot (it is very popular among those from India now) and being hispanic does not equate to being a criminal. San Jose has one of the lowest crime rates of any major city in the United States.

Facts oh masters of saying I don't know:

Safest city with a population over 500,000 is....wait for it....San Jose, Ca.

Per the FBI in the same period the city of Oakland, you still live in Oakland Tom? I know Erik is right outside of it, was rated number four behind Detroit, St. Louis (the scariest place I've ever been), and the lovely city of Flint, Michigan.

Just in case you are keeping score if you go to the exclusive gated and very wealthy community of Silver Creek Country Club, wait don't go, y'all can't get in, but look up the numbers a few years ago they had one of the highest crime rates in San Jose. Why? Cuz some kid of a 49er player was breaking into houses with his pals and some whackadoodle killed his wife and himself, thus making it not only an exclusive area but high crime. Interestingly Silver Creek Country Club is considered to be in East San Jose, just don't tell them that, they dislike brown people without money. I personally think the houses are nicer further into East San Jose and if you have a million bucks you can get get one, maybe. Statistics...gotta love 'em.
nums
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Quote:
On 2009-04-17 23:17, landmark wrote:
Should one be allowed to carry an UZI?


I do not think anyone, and this includes the police has a need to carry, loaded in public an Uzi. However one should be allow to own one and shoot at a range that allows such a gun or on his own property. Automatic guns are IMHO mainly an offensive type of weapon.

Why police carry, or have acces to automatic weapons is beyond me, but if a police officer wanted to own one in his personal life that is fine with me.

Most antis see guns as all or nothing and most pro do the same way, with, again IKHO one major differance, to the antis there is not a diiference between a .38 5 shot revolver, a .45 semi and a nuclear bomb. You can see from some of the posts above.

As far as automotic weapons, lets try this anology, John said above, it may have been on a different thread that one can not drive a tank or f-1 racecar on the street and this is true. But one may own these items and use them on your own property. Say Joe f-1 owner toook his 700+ horsepower car and ran down the road and in the process caused the death of many innocent motorist, would you then be anti-car? Do not use the lame excuse that cars are needed as I know quite a few people who live everyday without a car. Also do not use the lame excuse that cars are designed for GOOD things and GUNS are designed for BAD. If that is the case why do the cops carry guns? For bad porposes? IMHO saving a life is a GREAT thing and guns , while they can be used maliciously, just like knives, rope, gas and a match and just about anyother thing on this earth, guns can also save lives.

A lot of antis that I know, know all they know about guns from TV and the news and have never held a gun let alone shot one. Heck once I said that the reason I wanted to carry was a could not throw a rock at 1600 feet per second and the response was, If the person is 1600 feet away why do you need a gun?

I am also glad, and suprised to see this thread has gone on and the powers that be have not shut it down and we have had a discussion w/o name calling.

As far as stats, there are approx 100,000,000 according to edreform.com.

Since 1966 there has been 177 murders in school shootings including 62 of those were at colleges so take the out and 4 were by national guardsmen at KENT State, that is 111. 111 toatal gun related deaths in public school since 1966. For the other of you guys lets raise it to 200, 200 since 1966 and the 100,000,000 students is the approximate enrollment this year. I wish the murder rate was that in Baltimore. Last year there were 277 in a city of 500,000 and the police chief and Mayor were dancing in the streets say how good it was. You have a better chance of hitting the lottery than getting shot at a school, but as an anti and they would say the chance were preety good.


Now here is the real question, has anyone swayed thier opinion? My guess is no.


NUMS
Magnus Eisengrim
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[quote]On 2009-04-18 08:54, nums wrote:
Quote:


Now here is the real question, has anyone swayed thier opinion? My guess is no.


NUMS


Dunno about any opinions, but I was unaware of the toxic dumping off the Somalian coast. This appears to be well documented.

I still think that pirates are thugs, not very different from city gangs and smugglers. I still believe that the American military handled the Maersk Alabama situation brilliantly. And I still believe that the True Apostles of Firearms will aggressively shout their agenda whenever given the chance.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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Nums, I am glad to hear that you draw the line at carrying automatic weapons. From the posts that I have read so far from the pro-gun side, the arguments seemed to imply that Constitutionally no line could be drawn. I think to most people this is unreasonable. So maybe we have found some common ground.

Jack
EsnRedshirt
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Nums-
Police (or at least SWAT) need to carry automatic weapons- or at least semi-automatic weapons- when the criminals start walking around wearing military combat armor. Standard issue firearms just don't have the stopping power to counter it.

And when the criminals are also carrying automatic weapons, the risks to innocent life are too high- the cops need to be able to take down someone like that quickly, before they kill people.

-Erik
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
MagicSanta
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Yeah. I recall in Los Angeles when those guys in body armor robbed a bank, the shoot out was on TV, the police didn't have weapons available that were effective so they actually had to go get them from gun shops.
tommy
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I think the world is full of pirate ships called nations.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Tom Cutts
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No not from gunshops. More misinformation from Santa. The body armor these guys had was top notch. They had to get military issue to bring them down... Because they could not get authorization to run 'em down with an armored car. Once the metal piercing rounds were utilized they fell like limp sacks of potatos, but it took many hours for that to come about.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2009-04-19 17:52, Tom Cutts wrote:
No not from gunshops. More misinformation from Santa. The body armor these guys had was top notch. They had to get military issue to bring them down... Because they could not get authorization to run 'em down with an armored car. Once the metal piercing rounds were utilized they fell like limp sacks of potatos, but it took many hours for that to come about.

I have Santa's back on this one, at least so far that the police DID go to a gunshop ...

http://www.emergency.com/lapdbank.htm

This gunbattle was so dangerous and the police were so outgunned that officers went to a nearby gun shop to seek heavier firepower. The owner of the gunshop said, "These people had body armor and they (the police) needed something that would break body armor, We supplied them with slugs that would at least break bones on someone wearing body armor."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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