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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » F/X » » Behringer ULTRATONE K3000FX Keyboard Amp/PA System (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

DanielCoyne
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Western Massachussetts
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So, even though I'm a little jealous of the Roland Cube Street, I ended up getting practically the opposite, a 60lb, 300 watt, Behringer ULTRATONE K3000FX Keyboard Amp/PA System.

This is my first amp/PA, and I wanted to make sure I had something that could really fill a hall if I needed it to. It generally lists for about $350 and I found someone locally who was selling one that was less than a year old for $120.

I went and tried one out at a music store and talked to the sales guy for a while. He said he thought it was a great choice for my purposes. He acknowledged that Behringer is struggling to overcome a reputation for unreliable equipment, but that over the past few years, they've really improved their quality and a re turning out some nice gear.

This has 4 channels with independant volume and effects and the mic channel has an XLR connector. My ipod sounds great through it, and I bought a Shure SM58 Dynamic Handheld Microphone and a boom stand. I think I will also order one of Frank's gim-crack mic holders and that should do me for a while.

The amp is not humongous, so even though it's heavy, I could still lug it in and use it for a smallish birthday party at a low volume. I think this set up makes sense until I get more experience and better understand my needs. And...most importantly right now...it didn't break the bank.

Any thoughts, endorsements, congratulations, or scoldings appreciated. : )

-Daniel
miscoes
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Allariz, Spain
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Hello.

I own a model from the same range ( 50 W only ) and it performs very nice almost every place I perform.

I carry also a ROCKBAG with two wireless receivers, an MP3 and a little Tapco mixer.
bhappie
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B. Happie Entertainment, LLC
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If your system doesn't work out Daniel, check out the Happie Amp. 5 pounds, 50W, 1 channel wireless headset, lapel, and handheld mic and an aux in for music. Internal rechargable lead acid battery if you don't have a plug. It is advertised in MAGIC and MUM pretty regularly.

its only fair to say- Yes- I am the person who sells them, so I am biased :o) I left out sales info to be fair.
DanielCoyne
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Western Massachussetts
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Bhappie,

I did check out your product before buying the Behringer...and I was tempted. It sounds a little too good to be true. Are there any video demos online?

I'll probably stick with this for now, but I'm sure having this big amp will inform my priorities when it comes time for the next one.

Thanks,
Daniel
Magic Arty
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metro Atlanta
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The Bhappie is amazingly good! I also thought that it was too good to be true! How nice to be surprised that it really is that good!
My big rig is a Roland KC 350, four input, 150 watt, 12inch speaker, with horn tweater system that is truly amazing....However, for the gigs of 100-250 or so, the Bhappie is more than sufficient.
atsmagic
Arthur Atsma

Feeling real happy now!
DanielCoyne
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Thank Arty.
TheAmbitiousCard
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Regardless of how many watts something is, how can an amp with one 6" driver be enough to play for a gig of 250 people?

My opinion is that it's impossible for it to sound good for the entire crowd of that many people.

If it's loud enough for the people in the back isn't it going to be way too loud for some in the front unless it's way up high? Also a 6" driver is not going to deliver very good sound to the back of the room, even if the amp goes to 11.

I'm just asking, but I've never heard a PA sound good in a big room unless it has descent sized drivers. Otherwise it will just sound like a very loud transistor radio with no low's at all. Especially outdoors.

And for a big gig shouldn't you need more than 1 source, e.g., 2 speakers??
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
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bhappie
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B. Happie Entertainment, LLC
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Frank (and any other interested parties),
I am no expert on sound but I do have an advantage over other PA system dealers. I use the Happie Amp at my shows and have been using it for about 5 years. Most dealers are not performers so they only really know their equipment based on what it does in their store. I truly do shows with 300 kids with this PA system. However, I do offer a discount on buying 2 of them for the reason you mentioned. You can get 2 on the same frequency and use one mic. That I have done so I can talk about how it works with honesty and clarity. It works very well but one does the trick quite nicely.
Your question is valid. I don't know why it works so well, but I have 194 happy customers.
You should get the speaker up as high as you can. That does help the sound travel. If I am on a stage, sitting on the edge of the stage works fine. I have even tilted it up a bit when needed or put it on a chair, shelf, bookcase... when working on the floor. This is true with any sound system. The Happie Amp does not come with a tripod. I wish it did, but I have found a place for it every time.
Frank, if you want to try it I offer you the same deal as anyone else. Buy one and if its not what you want I will buy it back including shipping and even pay to ship it back to me. I have gotten great reviews on it from MUM and Christian Conjurer.
I have had a couple people with defective units (minor issues) and I have shipped them a new one with a return label for the old one so they are not without a PA at all. I am doing my best to be the best at customer service and offer the best price. A lot of people are skeptical. I think if I would have charged $659 instead of $159 I would have sold more of them :o) But since I am a performer myself and a lecturer I want a good rep with my peers.
TheAmbitiousCard
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I do like the 2 unit option. that seems like a necessity for a bigger show.
I have what I need for all my shows so I'm not in the market.
But, best wishes with sales!
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
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KC Cameron
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When it comes to volume, it is not how many watts, but the SPL (Sound Pressure Level) @ 1 meter (in dB). Often the SPL is not listed - for a reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure_level .

Many manufactures use "RMS" watts (root mean square). If you see this, it is only meant to fool the public. It is how much power an amp uses- NOT the volume! Using power measurements is a bit like reporting on how much an amplifier weighs. Weight has no direct influence on quality or volume.

The speaker size is not directly related to quality of sound or SPL. Look at the Mackie SRM 150 - it's extended SPL is 110 dB with only a 5.5 speaker (nearly as loud as a Yamaha StagePas 500!) and it sounds great.

As for the Behringer ULTRATONE K3000, the specs do not mention the SPL. They talk a lot about it's power w/o actually telling you it's power. I have bought a couple Behringer mixers, and their quality was low and both lost channels w/i 6 months.


I don't know about the bhappy, and would love to know it's SPL.

All in all, look at the specs. What is the SPL, How big is it, how much does it weigh, how sturdy is it and what options are available? Can it be mounted on a speaker stand? How fast can you set it up and tear it down (with the options you will be using)? The actual quality of sound is probably not as important for a show since people talking and bad accostics will help level the field for all but the worst systems. One speaker is a faster set up, but it can mean the sound is distributed poorly across the room.


I think the Mackie SRM 150 could be the best deal currently available for a small active speaker. It sounds great, it is very loud (110-120 db @ 1 m SPL), the sound is distributed very well, and extremely small - but there have been some issues with it so I would buy local and get an extended guarantee.

The cons to it are:
It does not have an iPod dock(but an iPod can be plugged in it)
It cannot be battery powered
It does not have a built in mic
Some people have had them break soon after purchase (but are quickly & easily replaced).
It's stand is set at an angle (as it is designed as a monitor)
miscoes
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Behringer makes good and bad products. I've been using behringer products for years and tested myself several units with great success and can say its devices are no worse than other chinese audio products.

For instance, my little keyboard amp has lost the reverb knob monts ago but it still is going. With 3 channels and a direct input I can plug in my wireless control rack or go light and take only a MP3 and a microphone (and still have a remaining channel)
It's enought for the shows I perform (when raised on an stand)

I used for years a Behringer mixer (still working) in a rack for the same purpose and now a Mackie mixer but a keyboard amp is a good option if you want to have several inputs and avoid to carry more devices. More than this, keyboard amps have(ideally) flat response, opposite to guitar amps.

Voice amps, megaphones and so on many times have bandwith reduced to vocal frequencies so music played with them sounds flat and lacks bass end. That tiny loudspeakers are not able to reproduce bass freqs unless when used in special designed boxes ( and then they lack the ability to reproduce hight freqs... )

So... Go for an amp with a good loudspeaker, with flat response, put it over the public heads and start doing magic.
Dennis Michael
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The biggest turn off is 65 lbs. It's heavier than my Fender Passport 250! It's an extra trip to the car, and after a while, one starts to think of a 7-11 portable unit.

Quote:
The cons to it are:
It does not have an iPod dock(but an iPod can be plugged in it)
It cannot be battery powered
It does not have a built in mic
Some people have had them break soon after purchase (but are quickly & easily replaced).
It's stand is set at an angle (as it is designed as a monitor)


These are not cons but considerations for a personalized system:

iPods Connections:
Not every entertainer uses iPods (I have an iPod but I like my MP3 Tech better) and there are other new methods of producing mp3 sounds. For example, a simple CD player can work for some. There are a variety of alternatives here. There should be a controllable mp3 (audio) input.

It cannot be battery powered:
The higher the wattage the quicker the battery power is exhausted. Once the battery dies, you are in a jam. Batteries for large systems are expensive. If it's internal, what does one do when it does die, and it will. Some are wired directly and needs a technician to replace it. Internal battery systems have their negatives that need to be considered.

It does not have a built in mic.
A good mic is extremely important, and usually several hundred dollars. A system with build in mic have issues with internal batteries as mentioned above. I have two systems where the batteries went dead. Without a decent charger (they cost $35) one can overcharge and burn out a battery very easily. Sacrifices are made when one builds an all in one system to keep the cost down, it many times is in the microphone system. (This point is not to condemn internal mic systems, only point out some major issues with them). I believe in Franks posts where he says, the first thing one buys is a good microphone system.

Some people have had them break soon after purchase
This applies to all products. One can get a bad unit, hence it is good to stay with a long term company that has a good reputation for standing by their product.

It's stand is set at an angle:
This is to bounce off ceilings and minimize feedback. It is also an attempt to go over the heads of the audience for distance instead of directly on diminishing the full wave length of the speaker.
--------------------

A Wired mic is nice, but it has it's issues when one turns the head and speaks to an assistant and the cord gets in the way. We are again back to "the mic is the most important piece of equipment".

Happie Amp. 5 pounds, 50W...
I am not sure if this is the same system as the Hisonic SH120B which is 15w and 10 lbs 3 mics, it looks the same. Our local KIDabra Chapter has 4 members who have bought the Happie Amp system and they love it. I've heard it in operation in a 20x40 room and it does sound nice in that space. Most do small shows (Birthday parties, Daycare, and, one does schools.) It appears to be much better and much cheaper than the Florida PAS system. I will be demonstrating this Happie amp at my KIDabra lecture, in a large room with maybe 50-100 persons.

"Generally a 6" driver scares me."
The Mackie SRM 150 is very impressive and powerful, with it's Bose technology, it fills a school auditorium. I've compared the Happie amp with the Mackie. The piece is double in price for the Mackie, and of course the wattage is much more. It is like comparing apples with oranges for sound quality. (Mackie has no mic system. I used my own Audio Tec mic so we are comparing a $600 system with a $160 system. Not a fair comparison.)

Outdoor System:
The wattage for an outdoor system should be double as a general rule of thumb. This is a topic in itself.

My first system was the Fender Passport 250 made for a small band and large enough for outdoors. I moved down to the Fender Passport 150, then bought a Florida PAS system which couldn't handle my audience size. (Sold that in a year Batteries also died and lost their charge quickly). I bought the Roland CM30 Cube, that fits nicely in my Lefler table and still use it today. I bought the Mackie SRM 150 and bring it to my larger school shows or area conventions, The Mackie doesn't pack as well as my Roland. I have Velcro all over the Roland for my Mics, MP3 tech, & CD Player and this is not possible with the Mackie, although the Mackie sounds much better. The 27 lb Passport still sits in the corner, used occasionally for club shows and conventions as a back-up system.

Pick the largest number of people you perform in front of. Cut that number in half and that should be the minimum wattage system you would use. If it is a large audience only once or twice a year, then eliminate that audience size.

Here is a general guide chart for a speaker system:

  • 50 watts covers 50 persons (Birthday-Daycare Shows)
  • 150 watts cover 75 - 300 persons (Schools)
  • 250 watts covers 175-500 persons (Outdoors, Schools, Small Conventions)
  • 500 watts covers 250-1,000 persons (Fairs, Outdoors, Schools, Conventions, DJ Services)


A speaker system should not run at it's maximum output because the sound will be distorted and it may/will blow out the speaker over extended use. The general rule of thumb is 0.5 - 1 Watt per person for indoors, and double it for outdoors

For this post we are talking PA systems. Music only requires double or triple the wattage for excellent quality of high fidelity.

Earmark $300 for a good mic system.

Also we have a tendency to forget the extras:

  • Music Playback System
  • CD Player
  • iPod
  • iPhone/iTouch
  • Laptop Computer
  • MP3 Tech
  • MP3 Players
  • Remote Controls
  • Mixers
  • Electrical Cords
  • Microphone Stands
  • Speaker Stands
  • RCA Adapters
  • Extra Batteries
  • Extension Cords
  • Microphones
Dennis Michael
KC Cameron
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Dennis, I my post assumes that the readers are pro magicians, or are striving to be pros. Using any substandard system is a mistake. You don't have to have the best, but what you need is dependability and ease of use.

For me and my shows, the MP3 Tech is nice, but not worth the cost and has more bells and whistles than I need. For others, that is not the case. I can't think of any reason why a magician would prefer a CD or cassette player over a iPod or a MP3 player, other than they prefer older technology. It amazes me that so many systems still offer these built in. For a DJ or a party machine, ok, but for a stage performer?? Maybe I am just ignorant.

As for comparing systems, here is my criteria in general order of preference for an active speaker system for school or school sized shows.

1) Dependability/Road Worthy

2) Size - I carry a lot, I don't need to pack more. As I get older, this becomes more important to me. I have 6 systems now, from a small battery op iHome to 4 Mackie SRM450s w/2 Bass units. This also includes the speaker stands. I would rather have a system that uses a mic stand than the bulkier normal speaker stand. The heavier and/or bulkier the props, the more energy I devote to setting up, the less I have for performance.

3) Weight - See above.

4) Volume - I want the highest SPL possible for size/weight. A empty gym and a crowded library with heavy drapes are very different. 50 people in a small room and 50 people in a large room is very different. The environment changes the dB needed - not just the amount of people. Just because it works great in a gym does not mean it will work well in a library. If the gym has padded walls, or is packed, you will need more dB too, because padding and bodies absorb sound, and kids are generally noisey . Outside, the sound does not have as much things to bounce off, Possibly have more things that absorb it (trees) AND you may be competing with other sounds from airplanes & cars, to playground children screaming nearby. The system that works great in the gym with hard walls and 500 kids may not work well outside with 50 kids. What works well outside for 50 kids in one area may not be sufficient for 50 kids in another area.

Also, speakers can be like mics you can get a omni directional or a uni directional. Manufactures rarely tell you how the sound is dispersed. GENERALLY you want a wide dispersal (which is generally more expensive).

A 50 watt active speaker CAN be louder than a 300 watt active speaker. THIS IS IMPORTANT! "Watts", "RMS" and "loud enough for a school" are TERRIBLE ways to judge volume. AGAIN, there is no direct relationship between watts and volume or dB. If you wish to spend your hard earned cash judiciously, you need to look at the SPL @ 1 meter. If this is not in the spec's, it is not in them for a reason. Probably its watts or watts rms do not correspond with actual volume, and they are trying to pull a fast one on you, In a few cases the seller may not understand audio well. I cannot stress how important this is for the magician. Look at it this way . . . would you rate how fast a car is by how much gas it used to travel a mile? Of course not. Technology can make a HUGE difference. A older vehicle can have far worse gas mileage to a newer one, and not be as fast or as powerful. Another way to look at it is how vacuum cleaner ads are misleading. http://housekeeping.about.com/od/vacuumc......ower.htm Is it that shocking that advertisers can be purposely misleading? Yes, ethics and advertising are often not complementary.


4) Simple equalizer/mixer. Sound quality is not that important for 400 screaming kids. I also have some control in the iPod software. I do wish to plug in a couple mics and a sound source. When preforming, I want something simple to use over something with a lot of bells and whistles. For me, the bells and whistles get in the way and I spend more energy/money on them as opposed to performing.

4) Set-up speed. The longer it takes to lug in and set-up/tear down, the less shows I can do in a day. Of course, all in one packages have a problem if a built-in option fails, so I always have a back-up plan. I am also lazy, as I expect most magicians. I prefer a 1 piece system as opposed to two speakers. Two speakers does sound better, but in my shows sound is not as important as with others. Best yet a 2 piece system that can be used as a one piece system or visa-versa! If I am running later than I wish, speed is VERY important, and I am less frustrated before the show.

4) Good docked or built-in wireless mic. This goes along with speed. Quality/dependability is important, of course.

5) Built in iPod Dock with a rf remote. This goes along with speed too. The fewer things to hook up, the few wires, the faster things go and the less energy I devote to set-up, the more I have for a show.

An iPod is pretty standard, and there are lots of remotes for it. I won't argue that a MP3 Tech is better, it is just overkill for most performers. The ability of an iPod over a CD player for the cost difference is huge. Even if I were to use a MP3 Tech, I would want an iPod for back-up anyway. I cannot think of any reason to use a CD player over an iPod unless an iPod is too expensive (?). If that is the case, there are other, cheaper, mp3 players, they just have fewer options available.

6) Replaceable battery (AC operated too, of course. This is important if power is not available. I don't know how many times I have found none of the stage outlets worked or were turned off. This is a major waste of my time hunting for a working outlet or someone who knows were the fuse box is located. It adds to my frustration which subtracts from my show.


As for the angle of the Mackie SRM 150, it IS NOT to go over peoples heads. It is designed as a personal monitor, and is designed to be pointed at the performer. Using it as I suggest is not how it is designed, it just does a good job for it two.

After a ton of research, the Mackie 150 is my current choice. It was not made for this, but it does a good job. It is very small and light, very loud, good quality sound, it has a simple mixer and I can use two for stereo, but one disperses the sound throughout the room well. It is small enough to bring to a birthday party, and powerful enough to use at a school. I WISH it had an iPod dock and a wireless mic dock,with an option for a rechargeable (replaceable) battery, and the mounting was different. Then it would be perfect for me.

While I have not played with it, the Samson Expedition XPL300 - Portable PA intrigues me. http://www.samsontech.com/products/produ......dID=1951 It has an optional battery, a wireless mic dock and a iPod dock (w/no remote abilities). It is also 45 lbs -yuck. It does have casters and an extending "suitcase" handle. it is not as loud as the Mackie SRM 150 (110-120 db SPL @ 1 m) the Samson Expedition XPL300 is only 97dB SPL @ 1 m. The Samson is also $250 more expensive, but that isn't that big a deal.

I do like the Fender Passport 250. I have owned 2 of them. The Deluxe models have good sound. The regular models sound is fine for most magicians. They are rugged, and been around quite a while, so they should not have any surprises. They have a wireless mic dock and a optional battery and can be linked together for more volume. They are 55 lbs and 3 pieces. They do not show the speaker sensitivity, and would not disclose it when I called them. I expect the Mackie SRM 150 to be nearly as loud, or louder, but there is no way of me knowing since they do not disclose the SPL.

I have no personal experience with systems like the bhappy, and I am interested since it has a following and with an incredible price. Also, I imagine you can pole mount them with a little industrial Velcro and ABS pole mount you can get at Sam Ash for under $20.
Dennis Michael
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Captain Kid,
I hesitated placing this post here because I wanted it for the "general magician".

One thing is for certain, "good" systems are not designed for magicians. They are designed for bands or designed to be used as a PA system.

I read your whole post and it is well written. Fender was recommended to me by a guy who was in a band, and was a DJ. He knew it would serve all my purposes.

As for CDs, yes they are still used, and work quite well for many. The iPod, either shuts off on me, I can't read the display, goes back to the beginning, and other problems. I don't think it is the iPod as much as it is me using it. I had tons of songs on it. There are many mp3 players, and even my older portable laptop works well and I can see the screen.
Dennis Michael
KC Cameron
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Dennis,
Yes, My sight is going too, and the iPod display is small. As for it shutting off, it just means learning a new technology. As for using laptops, if you are runing stereo, this is a must have app for both Mac & PC:

http://www.astoundstereo.com/ It is great!
sethb
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Quote:
On 2009-08-03 Dennis Michael wrote: Here is a general guide chart for a speaker system:

  • 50 watts covers 50 persons (Birthday-Daycare Shows)
  • 150 watts cover 75 - 300 persons (Schools)
  • 250 watts covers 175-500 persons (Outdoors, Schools, Small Conventions)
  • 500 watts covers 250-1,000 persons (Fairs, Outdoors, Schools, Conventions, DJ Services)

A speaker system should not run at it's maximum output because the sound will be distorted and it may/will blow out the speaker over extended use. The general rule of thumb is 0.5 - 1 Watt per person for indoors, and double it for outdoors

Dennis, thanks for the good summary and the "people/watt" rule, which is a neat way to figure out what you actually need in terms of audio horsepower. The trick is to buy just a wee bit more power than you actually need, because with either too much or too little power, you're just wasting money.

From my own experience, I think "1 person/1 watt" is a pretty good rule of thumb. I use a PASO ProCast50 for outdoor Svengali Pitches. This is a 30-watt PA system, and I usually run it at between 35-50% volume. It provides very good coverage and sound reinforcement outdoors for 35 people, probably about 50 to maybe 75 indoors, depending on the acoustics. I just can't imagine that it would cover 500 people, as the specs claim.

One more thing on the wattage situation. Most PA specs claim one thing in the big print, and another thing in the small print. For example, the PASO says it's a "50-watt" system, but if you read the specs, you'll see that this is only at momentary peak power, not the the continuous power that is used in the real world; it is actually a 30-watt system. Ditto on the Mackie 150, which is advertised as a "150-watt" system, but really only delivers 100 watts of continuous power (still not too shabby!).

So people need to look at the small print when applying the "1 watt/1 person" rule. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC
Michael Messing
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Quote:
On 2009-08-03 06:28, Dennis Michael wrote:
The Mackie doesn't pack as well as my Roland. I have Velcro all over the Roland for my Mics, MP3 tech, & CD Player and this is not possible with the Mackie, although the Mackie sounds much better.


Wow, Dennis, I wish I could be at Kidabra to hear your lecture and to play with your sound systems. I have to admit your statement above surprises me. I went to Guitar Center with my Roland CM-30 and a mini disc recorder and compared the Roland to the Mackie. While the Mackie definitely produces much greater volume, I thought the Roland sounded better. It had a cleaner, fuller sound. For voice, I'm sure the differences are negligible but, for music, I thought it was distinctive. An experienced musician, who just happened to be there, had the same opinion. (He actually told me the Roland sounded better before I told him of my preference.)

Now, it might have been just that the display unit at Guitar Center didn't sound as good and another might have sounded better. You never know what kind of abuse a display unit has been through.

Personally, I only use the Roland for birthday parties and small library shows. The Carvin StageMate is my PA of choice for larger groups. It's inexpensive and runs off a sealed lead acid battery. It does weigh a lot at 40 lbs. plus (I have two batteries in mine) but it sounds great for a 10" speaker.

For a my largest shows, I run a JBL Eon G2 10 system (two G2 10s and a mixer.) They have the most amazing sound I've heard from a 10" speaker.

Michael
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