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mindpunisher
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Modern hypnosis seems to believe that everything is 'just' suggestion and that early ideas of magnetism were totally false.

But when you think about it could it be that there may have been something to the magnitism theory? Or at least the exchange of energy? Could suggestions be energy at their most basic form?

Watching programmes like the Dog Whisperer its seems like our mental states and the energy we give off can affect dramatically the behaviour of dogs. Also on the dicovery channel there have similar programmes about sharks where once again the human mental state and energy given off can affect the behaviour of dangerous sharks. And allow biologists to swim and interact safely amongs them where they would normally be savaged.

This is something I have been aware of for a long time. From my early days in Oz selling vacuim cleaners door to door. Your hit rate went up or depending ion your energy levels. And even on stage where on the rare occasion your not in the right mindset perhaps taking personal worries with you. And the audience turned into sharks and made it difficult.

Perhaps there is more to suggestion than just words? Perhaps they are ways to control energy around us. After all scientist now tell us that everything is made up of the same substance - energy?
Hostile18
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Quote:
Perhaps there is more to suggestion than just words?


You mean there could be some kind of.... *non* verbal element? What a thought. If only someone would write something about it.

Seriously though, there's a lot of interesting stuff been written about the idea of "energy" in this context, though as a lot of the discussion stems from Eastern mysticism it's often discussed in terms of Chi or Qi.

But you don't have to search out anything so esoteric. McGill's Encyclopaedia touches on this in chapter 4 - ok it's a rather dated touch now, but it's where a lot of hypnotists would have encountered the idea.

It's easy to dismiss notions of everything being about "energy" on a "fundamental level" as so much New Age gibberish, but I guess it's naive to purport to understand how complex mechanisms such as human communication work, and most people involved in studying the subject would probably confess there's plenty they don't understand about the processes involved.

That said, I think when people talk about "energy" it's sometimes as a metaphor for things like charisma, presence, prestige, focus - and usually conflating such things into some elusive mysterious force isn't particularly illuminating. It's a cop-out which resists analysing where the sense of energy comes from, and how it operates.

I think it's a really interesting avenue of exploration, since science hasn't quite got a grip on it yet, but it also means people tend to project a lot on to it, over-extend their metaphors, make absurd and ill-informed generalisations, and basically end up talking complete bs. But then, that's pretty interesting too.
mindpunisher
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The biologists and scientists have found that sharks posess a system for detecting electrical pulses that come off living beings. This enables them to detect the heart beat and in particular stress. Which then triggers the feeding frenzy behaviour. Same with blood. Its the electrolites in the blood they can detect from many miles.

This is now scientific fact. Electricity is just energy. So the energy theory may not be as woo woo as you first think.

I do believe we can trigger or affect the behaviour of those around us by the 'energy' we give off. More than the words. In fact I think it gives meaning to the words beyond whats obvious.

I personally believe this to be true. Even if science has not detected the inbuilt system we use.
TonyB2009
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If by energy you mean charisma, presence, or confidence, there is a strong element of this in any performance. A huge amount of suggestion is non verbal. If you mean some mysterious force unknown to phsyics, grow up. It isn't there.
Decomposed
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I would like something like ZAP to use. Smile

Candin
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2009-04-20 20:01, TonyB2009 wrote:
If by energy you mean charisma, presence, or confidence, there is a strong element of this in any performance. A huge amount of suggestion is non verbal. If you mean some mysterious force unknown to phsyics, grow up. It isn't there.


No I mean energy. I don't know about mysterious buts definately there. In fact science has proved it with sharks. I believe we also have a system that hasn't been uncovered. Who says charisma isn't a form of energy release?

Have you ever felt the anger or hate from someone walk in the room and bring a group of people into another state?

I believe we pick up on the energy others give out. The same energy gives subtle meanings to words and non verbal behaviour and everything we do or create. I believe it I use it and I get results with those I work with. Mainly sales people.
Dannydoyle
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People do not give out energy like you think.

In terms you may or may not understand, people say "Dogs smell fear". Well no they don't smell "fear" they smell the bodily functions which will result from fear. Adrenal glands, heartbeat, chemical changes in the body, THAT is what the dog smells.

People pick up unconsciously on body language, angry looks, and such, and yes this does bring down the mood of the room. This is the "energy" you seem to be refering to.

Can this be tapped into? Of course it can. Richard Nongard speaks about matching breathing patterns and things like this when simply talking with people to make them more comfortable. But to call it an "energy" is to completly miss the point of what is actually going on.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mindpunisher
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We ommit energy constantly or we'd be dead. Everything you talk about is at it's purest form energy. They are all expressions of energy.

Could you even match or mirror anyone if you did not use energy to do so? Writing this post is done with energy. Both physical and mental energy.

Why do you bring Richards name into everything? Do you think Richard came up with matching breathing patterns? I learned about mirroring and match more than 20 years ago on a basic NLP course. Its common knowledge. I would've thought you would've learned this too at least 20 yeas ago and not from Richard.

Are you telling me you haven't picked up on someones mood without looking at them? Just by them being around you? Or what about the atmosphere of a group of people? Which can change from group to group?

And of course the act of looking at someone requires that you focus your energy.

But we could argue this all day. I said I "believe" and that belief serves me well. To call this energy and learn how to control your energy and those around you will give you infinate amount of increased ability to influence your environment.

Science has already proved it can be done with sharks. And sharks pick up on the electro pulses humans ommit. And that humans can control the behaviour of sharks by changing their mental and emotional states to change the energy they ommit.

There are techniques associated with persuasion and influence that teach this aspect. I have used them and also taught them and have had some stunning results.

Enough for me to subscribe to this thought.
dmkraig
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The modern view that Mesmer used suggestion only, and not some form of energy, is a meme among hypnotists today. I would suggest (pun intended) that this is in part because few people have actually read any of Mesmer's actual views and records. If you do, it's clear that he also worked with energy along the lines of Reiki, Healing Touch, Laying on of Hands etc.

Yes, I know that some debunkers wold contend that such healing modalities are nothing but suggestion. I also know that the anecdotal evidence that such modalities have helped both people and other living things is, at best, suggestive, and no fully funded, independent, double-blind, wide-scale testing has been done to support or disprove these ideas.

I would contend that Mesmer did use suggestion, but don't all decent healers, including MDs, tell patients, "You're going to be fine," or "There's always hope?"

The other thing which people who claim that Mesmer only used suggestion as a source was the 1784 French royal commission (including Lavoisier and Benjamin Franklin) to investigate Mesmer at the instigation of more mainline physicians (who still practiced bleeding) who were upset at Mesmer's successes. The report of the commission denounced mesmerism, but again, few people today have actually read the report. This "test" of Mesmer never tested Mesmer. He refused to participate. So they tested another person who disagreed with Mesmer's ideas. When they couldn't find anyone to test...they tested themselves! Of course the commission denounced Mesmer. It was an archetypal example of fraudulent "debunking." Nobody talks about who Mesmer returned to Austria and continued to be successful.

Braid saw an example of Mesmerism and came to the conclusion that he could do the same thing through suggestion. That's practically the debunker's creed: "If I can reproduce the same sort of effects by means of trickery, then all instances of the same thing are tricker." That's sort of like seeing an image of Jesus on a potato and thinking you've witnessed the second coming. Sure, it looks the same, but that doesn't mean it was done the same way.

So the problem for today, IMO, is that people don't study (or even read) the original documents because they can produce the same results via suggestion. Therefore, why both to investigate the source? Mesmer's techniques won't be studied because Braid and the evolution of what Braid postulated is effective.

Right now, in the U.S., there is a political movement that, among other things, is protesting taxes and is calling itself the teabagging movement because of the Boston Tea Party where disguised colonists threw tea into the sea to protest taxation without representation. Too bad they don't read history, because those Boston protesters were against the elimination of certain taxes, not being overtaxed.
Dannydoyle
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Punishey I mentioned Richard because he talks about it on this board. Sorry to offend you. I never said he thought of the idea.

Are you telling me that without looking at someone you can tell the mood? A guy can walk into a room and you can tell me without looking at him what mood he is expressing? I would love to see you prove this claim.

I am telling you that it is easy to pick up on body language, group dynamics and things of this nature.

If you are telling me you pick up on some sort of "energy" I have to ask you to prove it. You are spewing things you claim but like most 'psychics' can't manage to prove. If you think you are picking up on anything but body language you are fooling yourself. Congradulations.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Decomposed
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Stare at a pit bull eye to eye or especially a monkey. Years ago I was working at an Air Force base where monkeys are being kept. I was specifically warned not to look them in the eye.

I know for sure a dog can pick up on your mood. Cats are too wierd.

I know, it has nothing to do with the topic but just a break in the action.

Candin
Dannydoyle
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You are right they can. They pick up on body language. ESPECIALLY chimps.

I train dogs. Dogs are huge body posture oriented. Every position in the pack has body postures that are assigned according to rank.

People are not too much different. You can read a lot about a person simply by the way in which they carry themself or any number of other body language positions. It has NOTHING to do with "energy". I am not going to debate the idiotic semantics of it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TonyB2009
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If it cannot be measured it does not exist. Mesmer may well have believed he was manipulating energy, but he was actually using suggestion. Reiki practitioners are not using an unknown psychic energy. Body language, empathy, endorphin release, suggestion and the placebo effect all come into play. Mental energy does not. In the end of the day there is nothing beyond the physical and everything can be explained scientifically. The problem is that the scientific explanation is often convoluted and multi-facated, and rarely as appealing as the mystical pseudo-explanation.
Dannydoyle
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It is also a lot tougher to get people to buy your system of this or that once it is explained.

Posted: Apr 27, 2009 10:53pm
It is also a lot tougher to get people to buy your system of this or that once it is explained.

And while all things can not be explained yet, this does not mean they can NOT be explained. We simply are not able to do so yet. This does in no way make them mystical in nature.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-04-27 20:43, TonyB2009 wrote:
If it cannot be measured it does not exist.


So you're saying that for thousands of years atomic radiation didn't exist because nobody had measured it?
Are you saying that love doesn't exist because nobody can measure it?
Are you saying that patriotism doesn't exist because nobody can measure it?
Are you saying that magic doesn't exist because nobody can measure it?

Sorry, but I have to totally disagree with your statement. Many things exist without being measurable.

Further, you can't measure something if you don't know it exists. However, things exist long before they are discovered and measured.

And what if that measurement is wrong? Does that mean it doesn't exist?

Or is saying that "If it cannot be measured it does not exist" just a simplistic way that some people use for avoiding dealing with complex issues that might upset one's belief systems?
TonyB2009
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Hi dmkraig. I have no belief systems that can be upset. I trained as a physicist, and only believe what emperical science demonstrates to be a fact. Beyond that I keep an open mind.
You have misinterpreted what I said about if it cannot be measured it does not exist. Everything that exists can be measured. We may not have the capacity or technology to measure it now, but it can be measured. Motion within an atom can be measured using electron microscopes and atom smashers. Vast movements in the cosmos, changes occuring on the edge of a black hole, all these things can be measured. Huge efforts have been made to measure so-called energy forces used by healers. The energy forces, if they exist, are within a range we are very good at detecting - in other words they are not on a subatomic level. And we have consistently found no such energies.
As for love, patriotism and magic, all these things can be explained by our genetic make-up, our societal structures, and our psychology. Some of this work has been done (google the Human Genome Project) but much remains to be done. However it is important to remember that knowing how a system works in no way takes from the joy and wonder the system gives us. Even if we provide a full chemical explanation for love (and much of this work has been done - for instance we know why women like chocolate and why eggs make the perfect post-coital breakfast) it will still be wonderful to fall in love and heart-breaking to fall out of it.
Decomposed
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OT: Interesting to see you trained as a physicist Tony. I worked in the Environmental Engineering field for years along with many health physicists.

I saw a few buddies a while back and tried out some mentalism PK. One is a good friend of mine for years. They certianly have an extrordinary way of thinking things through.

Candin
mindpunisher
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>>>Even if we provide a full chemical explanation for love (and much of this work has been done - for instance we know why women like chocolate and why eggs make the perfect post-coital breakfast) it will still be wonderful to fall in love and heart-breaking to fall out of it. <<<

But that's just the point. A chemical explanation is not a full explanation. Its only an explanation formed through the filters of that particular science. What drives these chemicals? Organises them where do they come from?

Medical science for example was mostly developed through studying corpses. Which are missing the essential life force.

Psychogenic medication attempts to correct chemical imbalances in the brain and nervous system. However the brain is capable of synthasizing just about any chemical known to man and a few others. And the medical solution fails because their is an important element missing. Chemicals produced by the brain have an intelligence that takes exact amount to the exact place at the correct strength.

There is no intelligence (or life force)in the medical solution therefore it bombards the whole system in some cases causing more problems.

And that sums up most scientific explanations. They are clinical and incomplete. Science has come to the conclusion that everything is energy. We are all made up from the same stuff. And that even the mindset and beliefs in some cases can influence "scientific tests". Science is catching up and agreeing with what was before ancient wisdom.

Just because you can measure some forms of energy doesn't mean there are not other forms you cannot measure with current models of science or physics.
TonyB2009
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I hate to break it to you, Mindpunisher, but our incomplete explanations will eventually become complete. The chemicals produced by the brain do NOT have an intelligence that allows them to be produced in the right amounts. It is simply a matter of homeostasis - the ability of the various body systems to work together to regulate our physiology. A simple analogy is the weather systems caused by air from high pressure areas moving into low pressure areas (wind). There are complex weather systems changing daily all over the world, but our climate is relatively stable. Complex systems work in co-ordination (and not through intelligence), because if they don't the system as a whole becomes unstable and collapses. Life systems are stable because the unstable ones were not viable and did not survive to reproduce.
So far our medical interventions tend to be crude because we are trying to influence one system without taking the other systems into account. When we alter one system the others react to return the body to a stable situation - homeostasis. Eventually we will become more sophisticated and better able to develope medicines that work across a number of systems, just like the chemicals the brain and body produce naturally.
There is no "life force" in medical science, because there is no life-force. There are just four forces in the universe - gravitation, electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear. No fifth force.
Dannydoyle
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Wow MP you ran into a guy with a degree in something other than bs. Time to quit while you are behind.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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