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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
This post I made a few years ago in the topic The Truth About Waking Hypnosis lists several scientific papers that address some of the issues addressed in this topic.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-21 17:51, Alex Tsander wrote: I think that post is pants... Quote:
On 2009-05-21 17:31, TonyB2009 wrote: What is vague about it? Its pretty clear. When all your senses are focused inwards you are experiencing full trance. When all your senses are focused outwards you are out of trance. Truth is we are constantly somewhere in between. I guess its a bit like snow. Words and definitions are dependant upon what uses you have for it and level of skill. If all you do are fake "shows" then perhaps you don't need anymore than you already have. In your world or trance your quite happy. As I said I have no real interest in pulling you out of it. Most of your world by the way is created inside your head not out of it. When somebody pays me for specific results getting their work force to behave in a certain way, win a £million pound negotiation or break Mercedes Benz sales records inside 14 days then I guess I need a bit more flexibility. It's ok Tony, I understand..., it makes more sense to pretend to do pretend hypnosis. |
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Alex Tsander New user 28 Posts |
Mindpunisher...Tony isn't criticising or undermining what you do, but the way you explain how it works.
But has been said here plenty, to many people that's "academic" and of no interest. To others its the whole interest. Lets face it, when you HAVE to turn in results, over and over and over and over, and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, year after year after year after year after year after year after bloody tedious same as before ***ed year, on and on and on and on and on and on..seemingly for eternity ( as I have been doing since 1993 )...because you are doing it as work ...the results get BORING. So its the academic side that I find interesting. But as has been said here by others, we've been all around the block on this thread. Can't we leave it as a nice tidy finished, balanced piece? Take these other, sometimes personalised issues up on new threads specifically about them if necessary. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I have been donig the show for about 20 years, and for the last 10 I have worked better than 5 shows a week. I do not find it "boring" in the least. I choose to throw my energy into the theatrical side of the equasion and find that when you do that it keeps from becoming boring, and the show is better as a result. Academic debates about distinctions without a difference, do not often result in a better show.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
I would love to see some of your videos Danny. Sounds like you have a unique show.
It is so difficult to please everyone in the audience. I use to attempt it and found my performance lacking based on my scale of course. Candin
ClICK HERE for HOW TO MAKE TRANSITION FROM MAGICIAN TO MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER WORLD NEW BOOK!
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You can't please everyone in any situation.
You have to pick a theory and go with it. I just don't happen to believe the audience themself will find the academic debate of whether hypnosis is real or not interesting. They want an interesting show. I am not saynig I have a "unique" show in the least. I am saying that the large percentage of people who see it have a good time. That does leave a percentage who may not enjoy it at all. This is just the law of large numbers. You can find terrible reviews of Copperfield. I am not at all saying there is one way to do a show, or one right way. I am saying I have a way which seems to work pretty well for me, and I keep improving it. I have seen some VERY 'unique' shows which the vast majority of the audience leaves. Not my goal.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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RicHeka Inner circle 3999 Posts |
I accidently stumbled upon this thread...but I must say:I have had the priviledge of seeing some Danny's performance videos...and it is 'entertainment personified'.
Also,Danny's comments in his above post can be positively applied to any of the Magical Arts. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
The only sure way to fail is to try and please everybody. As Danny said your goal is to create a show that most of the people enjoy most of the time so he gets rebooked over and over. Sounds like Danny never goes hungry.
Being unique is a goal of the ego and not of commercial success. |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-25 15:53, mindpunisher wrote: I think we have finally reached a point on which we all can agree. So something must be wrong here someplace. I don't want to reignite this debate, because all sides seem to have had their fair share of space to air their views. However, those who enjoyed this thread might enjoy this article: http://www.mheap.com/nature%20of%20hypnosis.html
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I really don't see the point. I think everyone should believe what they want. That in fact is what happens with everything anyway. I skimmed through the article. It never resolved anything. Just someone else's take on it.
We might as well put up a thread on religion and ask if God really exists... |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-27 04:28, mindpunisher wrote: The point is that it is fun to consider other views and theories. Its fun to broaden our minds. I am not trying to convert anyone to one view or the other. No matter what I think and what you think I am still going to be doing successful shows, and so are you. And long may that continue. I would love to put up a thread on religeon and prove that god doesn't exist, but that is not allowed on this forum. Just check out this locked topic: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=40&1
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Im tired of proving...because proving doesn't really prove anything. That article doesn't prove anything. Much of the examples given on the research are pretty poor.
I would rather find a solution. Since a big part of this disagreement IS semantics we should create another term when talking about hypnosis. Lets just call it UNCONSCIOUS PERSUASION. And throw out the word hypnosis since its the word and various associations attached to it that are mainly causing disagreement. |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
It is accepted in normal life that electricity flows from positive to negative poles. But the reality is different; the electrons flow from negative to positive. Our vocabulary, which pre-dated the scientific research, is incorrect and confusing.
You are right, Mindpunisher. Perhaps we need to change our vocabulary when we speak about hypnosis. Because it is obvious, despite our vastly differing views, that we are doing the same thing, and doing it well enough to be re-booked. I'll go along with unconscious persuasion. All the best.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-27 09:08, TonyB2009 wrote: Or it could just be that positive and negative were in the wrong place when those labels were created. Which means that they could still be moving from positive to negative...Thats how rediculous this is all getting. The fact is positive or negative never existed before it was 'created'(not discovered) by an academic or scientists. They are just constructs. |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
Positive and negative always existed - they are not human constructs. The electrons do actually flow, and flow in the opposite direction to what we normally think of. But it perfectly shows how the vocabulary was created before the science, and it leads to confusion now. It's probably too late to change the vocabulary. But maybe not in the hypnosis debate.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I think what I am trying to get over is that positive and negative are man made constructs. And they only exist inside the minds that use these constructs. Language labels are constructs. Outside mans thinking and evolution they never existed. An Elephant doesn't know he is an Elephant and never will. An Elephant is a man made label.
I think with "hypnosis" we agree more than we disagree. The problem is with the language and labels representing different constructs which are leading to "debate". But what we all agree on is that we are influencing the unconscious responses of others when we use "hypnosis". Call it manipulation, suggestion, social compliance. It doesn't matter it all amounts to the same thing. We are all practicing "Unconscious Persuasion" (the clean term) Lets agree to disagree on some basics. Science works mainly on observing and measuring the physical world. Something only exists if we can see it label it and measure it in some way. I and others believe that we live in more than just a physical world. We live in an emotional, mental and a spiritual world as well as a physical world. Part of that belief is that just because the 'invisible' cannot be measured in scientific way doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Infact it is how the invisible elements are configured that determine the physical world. So lets just agree here that these are two different belief systems or way of thinking and trying to prove each way of thinking is right over the other is pointless. Lets just accept that we think differently. Lets look at what we agree on. There is no super natural state. Hypnosis(or unconscious persuasion) is an everyday natural occurence. Where we seem to disagree is what the labels of Hypnosis and Trance actually mean. Where really if we sat down and listened to each other we would probably agree on most things once we understood each other. At least have more tolerance. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I came to this conclusion 4 pages ago and was told I was wrong.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
We certainly have different ways of viewing the world. I do not believe in anything beyond the physical. I trained as a physicist and that is how I view the world. It works for me.
Going off-topic, Mindpunisher, positive and negative charges are NOT human constructs. They are physical realities. Particles have a charge, and had a charge before we could label it and measure it, and before we were on the planet, and before the planet was formed. The reality of physical particles has nothing to do with our thinking about them, and all the mental activity in the world will not change a single physical thing, unless we follow up that mental activity by getting off our asses and doing the physical work to change things. The world is not created or influenced by our mental activity. It is as it is, irrespective of how we think of it. But I think, in fairness, this has been a fairly tolerant and civilized discussion all along. All the best, Tony.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I will just say this, get rebuked, and move along. I am not going to argue the point.
I have always felt that if you are being asked "is it real?" after the show regularly that perhaps you have not done as much to entertain the audience as possible, and this should be looked into. Really. Do you go see a play, ballet, heck MOVIE for pity sake and ask if the actor playing the charector really is dead back stage? "Is it real?" misses the whole point of the show for me. Questions like "what are they experiencing" and things of that nature are prefectly acceptable if you ask me but the idea of "real" just misses the point. How are you going to prove something people "imagine" or are manipulated into thinking is "real" in the first place? I hardly EVER get this stuff after any show I do. I think far more productive things can be done with the theatrical side of the equasion than spending so much energy and time digging yourself into a position that no matter what happens you will never come out of. I mean if you go to see a James Bond film and try to watch it and make sure they follow all the laws of physics, it sort of misses the point of the film in the first place. Like I said it just seems to me to be pointless as right where the rubber meets the road I don't give a rats hind parts WHAT it is called or how it is spelled something is going on. Can ya prove it? I am not sure why anyone would even want to try.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Negative and positive are labels. They are human constructs Tony. They are ways of perceiving reality. You are physicists so you have 'learned' that using these constructs gives you a model of reality with which to operate from in order to move towards certain results.
Your training has conditioned or programmed you to view the world in a certain way. Since perception is driven by unconscious programmes - in my model of the world you have undergone a hypnotic process or unconscious persuasion. A big part of your core Identity is wrapped around your training. Which you have little or no conscious control over. As for the word Hypnosis or preferable unconscious persuasion - You want to do shows that get results and get rebooked. You need to do a certain number of things for that to happen. I have a wider interest and application of unconscious persuasion. There for my labels and constructs are different from yours which allow me to get a wider range of results for my clients. Trance has a different meaning for me as does the word hypnosis. The results are very real. Are you saying that being a physicist has limited your ability to think outside that one discipline? I find it hard to believe that no physicist on the planet doesn't have religious beliefs. And also take what you said about the flow of electricity. you said we now know that electricity definitely flows from positive to negative, but we got the direction wrong. Whoever 'decided' this could've stayed with the position of positive and negative and decided that in actual fact electricity flows from the negative to positive. All theories are decisions and creations and interpretations of observations. They aren't reality. They are a model of reality. |
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