Hello,

I'm interested in finding out the History of Doves being used / manipulated by magicians?

I.e, when did doves first appear in the magicians arsenal?

Who was the first magician on record to produce a dove?

Why did he use a dove?

Were Dove's the first birds to enter the magicians' arsenal?

If anyone can help, or share some links that would be fantastic. This information is to be used in an Artist statement as part of an Installation work.

Cheerio.

Most magicians don't have an "arsenal." They have a "repertoire."

Doves as weapons? I don't think so.

If one considers pigeons to be roughly in the same family as doves, then you would only have to go back as far as, say Discoverie of Witchcraft to see an example of a piece of dove magic.

Dedi was recorded in the Westcar Papyrus ( ca. 1800 - 1900 BCE ) to have restored the head of a decapitated goose and some other decapitated waterfowl. This predates Discoverie of Witchcraft by about 3300 - 3500 years.

So, no, doves are not the first birds to be used in magic. Before dove acts were commonplace, illusionists were using ducks and geese in their acts, and cup and ball workers were using baby chicks in theirs.

Thanks Bill,

I am specifically interested in when Doves were first used in a magician's performance, and why?

I'm after historical references, links?

For such a staple of modern stage magic, there must be some decent historical articles on the origins of dove use by magicians.

The first magician's book on dove magic was Senior Torino's 1955 "Dovetail Deceptions." You may find more information in there. Channing Pollock's performances with doves, while not the very first, were the catalyst that suddenly gave every modern working magician a craving to perform dove magic in his act.

I understood that Tony published the book because he felt that Channing Pollack stole his act. The guy that would know most about that is Ed Pacasha (spelling?) (the sponge guy), in Pittsburgh. (He might be listed as Edie Ace.) He was a close friend of Tony's, and I believe Tony worked with Ed on Ed's dove routine.
Tony Torino also performed under the name of Tony Londano. (spelling?)
By the way, Tony had a card in the orange as part of his lecture, which was a real gem. I don't know if he ever published it, but it was one of the easiest to perform.

Tony also performed as Tony Kardyro.

There was a dove worker whose name I cannot recall for the life of me, who came from Mexico. He produced doves from his serape.

Doves were also used in dove pans (hence the name) and in other pieces of apparatus before they were used as staples in the ubiquitous dove acts.

But your question about why they were first used kind of baffles me.

They are small, yet when they spread their wings they appear larger. They are docile and easily trained.

One thing you should bear in mind is that you are going to need to do some serious looking in books, not on the internet. If you had Ian Adair's Encyclopedia of Dove Magic and some of the information that Marian Chavez put out, you would find everything you need there. You won't find this on the internet.

Cantu was the worker from Mexico.

RIGHT... CANTU... he was probably the first "modern" dove producer.

Pete is on to it! The words that must be associated with this are "modern dove magic". Certainly dove magic as we know it predates the discovery of America. Among other things, neither the doves used nor silk were in the new world. Both are imports.

My guess is that we got our lead in silk and dove magic in India where both are native and magic is very old. I researched this topic as hard as I could back many years ago when I started writing Dove Hotline out on the Internet for dove magicians. Frankly, I found nothing to lead me to believe that much about dove magic originated in the western hemisphere. Perhaps, sound actuated and broken light beam switches are our only contribution and that is only by application of existing technology. We have enjoyed an edge in what we call "diffusion of innovation" due to better media and communications. (Diffusion of innovation deals with the speed of travel for information and technology, not the innovation itself.)

Remember Christopher Columbus was LOST! He was on his way to India. He never got there. But when he found the land and people, he called them Indians! The misconceptions hardly stopped there. (You should see how wrong the Spanish explorers were.)

Our concept of modern dove magic is more related to media (printing and movies) than to the actual history of doves and magic. Many of the people I meet today think nothing happened before MTV! Sorry, but almost everything did!

I have no doubt that dove and silk magic was being done in the East long before Marco Polo went there in the 1200s.

Then let's cut to the chase. So what? TV did not invent sports either. College did not invent math and hospitals did not invent health and disease. We don't want to take credit for the works of others. However, there is no way to get lost history either. Use what was learned.

We know that magic was formally taught in the days of Daniel. There are no DVDs. But what good will your DVDs be to your great grandchildren?

Enjoy your dove magic.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

One thing I should add. Evidently a lot of people think that "Magicians Helping Magicians," which is the subheading of the Magic Café logo means "Magicians doing all the work for other magicians so they don't have to do any research." I don't believe that it does.

I believe that if you want to know something about a specific field of magic, the best we can do for you on the Café is to point you in the right direction. You must do your own research.

Otherwise, it means nothing.

Besides, if one of us were to say "Well, Cantu was the first magician to produce a dove in his act, and he used it because they contrasted nicely with his Mexican outfit," it wouldn't be true. It would simply be convenient.

You would eventually find yourself putting this on some of your advertising material, and one day some other fellow who has taken a bit more time studying the subject will look at it and say, "This guy's full of C--P. If this material is an example of the care he takes studying his art, I don't want to hire him."

Bill,

I really like a point you made in your earlier post May 3, 2009 9:50pm.

"One thing you should bear in mind is that you are going to need to do some serious looking in books, not on the internet. If you had Ian Adair's Encyclopedia of Dove Magic and some of the information that Marian Chavez put out, you would find everything you need there. You won't find this on the internet."

When the popular media of the times change, the information seldom travels with it. DVDs certainly do not have everything found in books. And the books are missing ... (Honestly, we don't know.)

The Internet did not invent information and data. It is just the current delivery vehicle for current stuff someone has bothered to enter into that data format. What happened to your cassettes with picture books? (I still go back to my Patrick Page ones.) I think they predate VHS and BetaMax. The new media (DVD) was not the beginning of new sponge ball magic! It is just only as far into historical research some go. It is pretty shallow research.

Another real hole in research I find among magicians is that they assume that if it is not in a magic book, tape, DVD etc. it can't be elsewhere. That is very dangerous thinking. Odds are very good that the early uses were not magical entertainment at all.(examples: slush powder, "the Lean", roughing fluid, short/long, light and sound actuated switches, wine bottle from silk, color changing hank, thumb tip, glow-plug ignition, one-ahead methods, hooked coin, safety pin escapes, droppers, etc.) The research needs to be very broad and well beyond just a magic act.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

Thanks for your post, Bob.

When I put up my first web site about 15 years ago, one of the pages was this one:
http://www.billpalmer.com/merlinfo.htm . This had most of the information I knew about sources of the Merlin legend at the time. Near the bottom of the page, there is another link, imbedded in the following sentence:

If you are looking for a research paper, complete with footnotes and references, click here. The link directs the viewer to http://www.billpalmer.com/merlinf2.htm

I have gotten mixed reactions from that page. Teachers love it. One man who was "helping his six year old son write a research paper" told me that my page should be "stricken from the internet," because I had disappointed his son.

I told him that he should have his parental privileges removed, because he was teaching his child to steal intellectual property and claim it as his own.

Thanks for the wild tangent fella's on Media delivery streams. The medium is irrelevant, the content is what I'm after. Thank you Bob, for your insight.

Yes bill, clearly doves are docile and expand, making them convenient & pretty as a magical production item. However, I presume there is much more to the story, as there are many, many live animals which are docile, and expand.

I'm looking for a cultural influence on this popular effect, from it's eastern origins and then adoption in the west. Surely there is a fantastical story / tale about the journey of the dove which is more substantial, rather than hey it's convenient and pretty.

Bob, could you point me in the direction of your "Dove Hotline"

Cheerio, thankyou

Mozerian:

The point that both Bob and I were trying to make was that you are going to have to go off the internet to find the information you are looking for. You aren't going to find it on line.

I think both of us made that point quite well. You may be trying to ignore it.

When you start looking for material on the internet, remember that ANYONE with a web site can post ANYTHING he wants to, without verification of any kind. This is one of the big faults with Wikipedia. It's like an asylum that is being run by inmates.

BTW, you asked for two basic different things. One was when doves were first used by magicians. The other was if doves were the first birds used by magicians. Don't take me to task for answering both of these questions in a logical manner.

As far as "why" doves are/were used -- are you looking for symbolism? If so, be specific. My take on it is that doves were used for the same reason as the mango tree was used. While psychologists and mystics like to read deep meaning into the trick, the mango tree was used because you could fold it without damaging it.

As far as a link to dove magic history is concerned, this might be of help.
http://askalexander.org/results3.cgi?sid=116516

I think that you are going to have to go to India to get the history that you want. I doubt that it is going to be in print media either.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

There is a lot of hogwash about doves that is spread through the mass media. For example, many of the media types would like for us to believe that a dove is a symbol of peace, because it returned to the Ark with an olive twig in its beak. That's not what the story originally said. It returned to the Ark with an olive twig in its beak, as an indicator that there was viable land out there.

The dove became a symbol of inspiration when the Holy Spirit appeared to the multitudes in the form of a dove, as The Voice proclaimed "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well-pleased. Listen to Him."

White doves without blemish were used as sacrifices, not only in Jewish temples, but in other kinds of temples as well.

There is more about the symbolism of the dove here: http://www.squidoo.com/doveofpeace

and here:
http://tailsofbirding.blogspot.com/2007/......ich.html

and here:
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art12825.asp

as well as a total of 110,000 web sites.

Bear in mind that most of this has nothing to do with why magicians produce doves.

Bill and Bob: I agree - as a teacher of HS Biology and adjunct college Professor, my students bring in "new facts" they discovered on the internet , only to be disappointed that I know about it already. When questioned I can tell them I read the fact previously ( still read 3-5 old fashioned bound books a week) MY personal library of all topics is more than 2500 volumes and growing. When I research a topic I still go to original sources when possible, -yes I go to the National Archives, LOC, libraries, and museums.. Amazing what you can find when you work the stacks and collections. I've even found misfiled items that had been "lost".

The internet is a tool, I can't emphasize this strongly enough. It is only as good as the material entered into it. When working with students, we have to teach them how to interpret the information. The best are sites that have digitized the original material (saves on travel and overnite expenses), but even then there are times I need to see the original.

Be cautious, be aware, be smart- use it like any tool- all tools need sharpening, cleaning and tuning - the internet is TOOL not the end all of all information. --- john

I heard tell there was this guy named Noah who did some sort of dove act after a big rain storm, was somewhere out in the middle east, don't recall the exact date, but seems like it was long ago.
Also heard rumors he was one of the first to use the Raven as well.

He apparently did not teach them to fly back either!

Sometimes, I think I should take credit for that! At the Cavalcade of Magic, I had one that Noah trained.

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

ROFL, we all have had one that suddenly got wanderlust. My first outdoor performance with doves, my third dove (and I swore I had the wings and tail trimmed well), just took off and was never heard from again.