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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Books, Pamphlets & Lecture Notes » » HN Review 27: Live In Lecture, M.I.M.E 1a - Kenton Knepper (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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shrink
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Quote:
On 2003-05-22 18:35, IanBrodie wrote:
OK - I see what you mean Shrink, good point.

Although I can understand why people might have thoughts in that direction. For me (and you don't have to agree - I'm not looking for a heated "is NLP any good?" debate!) if you look at NLP as a collection of useful tools there's some great stuff in it. If you look at the theory side of it (B&G's speculation as to why the tools might work) I find it very weak. So I can understand why some people might criticise it from one perspective.

All the same though, I agree, if Kenton's (NLP based) tools are praised, then the NLP tool itself should be praised too (or wherever the tool came from - plenty of Kenton's stuff is not NLP based, and plenty of NLP tools are as old as the hills)

Ian


Ian its not a matter of NLP should be praised, its more about people making judgments about something they know little about. The most amusing aspect is they praise and pasionately defend certain elements of Kenton's work because they have tested it and found it to actually work. And then in abother post discredit NLP when in actual fact the have validated its usefulness and don't even know it.

I am specifically talking about language in this case.

Without getting into a "heated debate" (it is a waste of bandwidth.)

NLP has to be experienced you can't learn it to any depth from a book or making judgements on theories...
Bambaladam
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Ian, none taken. Smile

Glad you figured my obfuse ramblings out in the end!

I often wish I could be crystal clear in my expressions.

Re: the NLP issue I feel it is a similar situation. Those who reckon it flies have great results. Those who don't don't.

I am in no way NLP-learned. But I have seen enough of it to have faith in the faithful.

/bamba
IanBrodie
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Shrink - get your point completely and agree. However, I would say that it's possible to agree and enthuse about certain aspects of something like NLP, while disagreeing with other aspects without that in any way being contradictory (as long as you realise what you're talking about and why). In the cases you're talking about though, I get the impression that the folks you refer to didn't even understand that the Kenton stuff they were praising was NLP based. That is indeed a bit silly.

We'll have to agree to disagree about experience vs theory. I agree that you can't (fully) learn anything from a book - but experience can be misleading too - especially since it's not practiced in "control" conditions and is subject to small sample sizes and placebo/Hawthorne effects.

That's why we (should) run controlled experiments to test what we've found out from experience (or predict from theory) to see if/when it really works.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I personally feel there's a disconnect in NLP between the practical tools (most of which seem to work) and the theory (which doesn't gel with what neuroscience for example has more recently found out about how the brain works). That doesn't make much difference for practitioners, they can continue to use the tools which work - but in the search for better tools and practices we do need a theory which begins to properly explain how the brain works.

But now we're way off topic - and I value the discussions with you in other areas to get into a fight over this one Smile

Ian
highmagic
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Quote:
On 2003-05-21 07:33, Nir Dahan wrote:
Ian,

that is why a review should be evaluated for its contents as well as its author!
and by seeing a lot of reviews on different items from Harvey (which I must admit I don't know) I can get an idea what he likes or dislikes. and if those reviews happen to be similar to what I thought regarding the same effects, books, manuscripts then I know I can more or less trust his reviews.
if we both don't play guitar and we both cant appreciate its value, so be it. the point is that I (and others) can gain some value from these reviews.



I agree with Ravi and Nir. If you have more or less the same tastes of a reviewer, and he tells you that Ian Rowland's guitars
are useless pieces of carved wood, chances are good that you will feel the same. And if the reviewer is well informed, chances
are good that Rowland's guitars really are useless pieces of carved wood...

Most of the Café reviews are simple ads of the products - just have a look at the recent thread on the "X-pert" device on the
"Good, Bad and Garbage" forum: the thread is basically a discussion between the creator of the effect (Necromancer, alias Neil
Tobin), the wholesale distributor (Tim Trono - Murphy's Magic Supply) and the reseller (Hocus Pocus). How can you possibly
trust such opinions?
Ian Rowland
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Quote:
If you have more or less the same tastes of a reviewer, and he tells you that Ian Rowland's guitars are useless pieces of carved wood, chances are good that you will feel the same. And if the reviewer is well informed, chances are good that Rowland's guitars really are useless pieces of carved wood...

With friendship and respect, not so. Your comment misses the point of my earlier analogy. Whether or not a guitar is a 'useless piece of wood' is not a matter of taste and opinion and judgement. A guitar is patently far more than that, and is demonstrably capable of being used to entertain people, to move them to tears, excite them, etc.

If someone were to say of a guitar that it is 'a useless piece of wood', this tells you nothing about the item but an awful lot about the person uttering the comment. For one thing, it tells you that he was unable to see or exploit the potential and usefulness of that which he is commenting on. But the usefulness is there nonetheless, and 'taste' and 'judgement' do not come into it.

The trouble with describing a marketed item as 'useless' is that it might be desperately unfair to the guy who actually laboured long and hard to produce it. I sometimes think it might be more fraternal, and in the spirit of this message forum, to avoid absolute terms such as "useless" and to say, instead, "I couldn't find anythng useful in it" or "It's potential wasn't apparent to me". I think this is fairer, because it acknowledges the subjective nature of the review, and recognises that the limitation might have as much to do with the person reviewing as with the item reviewed.
www.ianrowland.com . Working Magic.
highmagic
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Quote:
On 2003-05-26 16:58, Ian Rowland wrote:
Quote:
If you have more or less the same tastes of a reviewer, and he tells you that Ian Rowland's guitars are useless pieces of carved wood, chances are good that you will feel the same. And if the reviewer is well informed, chances are good that Rowland's guitars really are useless pieces of carved wood...

With friendship and respect, not so. Your comment misses the point of my earlier analogy. Whether or not a guitar is a 'useless piece of wood' is not a matter of taste and opinion and judgement. A guitar is patently far more than that, and is demonstrably capable of being used to entertain people, to move them to tears, excite them, etc.

The trouble with describing a marketed item as 'useless' is that it might be desperately unfair to the guy who actually laboured long and hard to produce it.


Customer do not really care if you spent 10 years of your life manufacturing a guitar, or invested billions of dollars in developing the prototype. If all you came up with is a piece of carved rotten wood with 6 shoestrings loosely attached to it, you may still be able to enchant audiences with your etheral sex appeal, you may even obtain enthusiastic quotes from your magical friends, but what customers want to hear before spending their money is a review from a neutral guitar expert, stating THE FACT: "Ian Rowland's guitar is a piece of carved rotten wood with 6 shoestrings loosely attached to it. Junk".

PS: "Some tricks just stink. Don't bother." (Jim Steinmeyer)
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Books, Pamphlets & Lecture Notes » » HN Review 27: Live In Lecture, M.I.M.E 1a - Kenton Knepper (0 Likes)
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