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dader76 New user Connecticut 42 Posts |
I'm surprised at the vehemence at some of these responses. Where does the idea of copying verbatim his presentation, let alone his style and persona, enter into the equation? I believe I simply asked 1) has it been published, 2) does he use chopped cups? Some of you imply the intent is to steal the whole shebang down to Ricky's personality. In that you are both wrong and out of line.
For the rationale and legitimate responses, I thank you for the insight. For the balance, get a grip..! |
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Sir Richard Special user 650 Posts |
Quote: I agree, Bill, yet I saw the magicians trying to emulate his every line, joke, & expression; it didn't work. You are correct in your pointing out that we need to adapt a routine to our own personality. I apologize if I failed to convey that; it was late & I was tired.
On 2009-05-08 01:13, Bill Palmer wrote: Sir Richard.
"In the land of Murphy there is but ONE law!"
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BCS Inner circle 1083 Posts |
Bill… Thanks for answering my question about the Cups. Did Danny Dew ever make a chopped Cup is now answered.
Take care, Bruce |
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Bill Wilson Special user 536 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-08 07:34, dader76 wrote: You're right, some of us, including myself did jump to a conclusion. You simply asked a couple of questions concerning Mr. Jays routine. You never did say you were wanting to copy it. I'm sure you can see how or why we jumped to that conclusion but still we should not have been so hasty. I do appologize. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I agree completely.
I think the thing that threw most of us off was the title of the thread. He asked two completely innocent questions. Some of us over-answered them.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
No vehemence intended - apologies if it was taken that way.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Likewise.
Sadly, so many ask about material because they want to take it. The classic story was about Lewis Daventport. His daughter Betty, running the magic shop said, "We always knew where daddy was when he was touring as the day after he appeared in a particular venue we would get orders for many of the tricks he featured."
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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dader New user 4 Posts |
Let's remember why we are on the MagicCafe or Cupscon...to grow in magic and to converse with like-minded people. We watch routines, work on our own, and generally seek to develop our own material that works for us. But there's nothing new under the sun..or in this case cups. The moves, the cups, are largely things that have been developed by others before us. So when we learned we probably all looked at Vernon's moves or those pamphlets that came with an Adam's set or were on a shelf at, in my case, Tannen's. We watch others to learn, to adopt.
I saw Ricky Jay in Cambridge, MA years ago...it's a non sequiter but David Roth, I believe, was his stage manager -- and love the routine even though (perhaps because) I understood a lot of what he was doing from a technical standpoint and so appreciated his presentation, story, persona. Do ask if it's been written down anywhere asks if it's been published to understand it better. I challenge any one on this exchange to say they never studied other people's routines and incorporated some of those into their own. As magicians you study the art, the artists, and you study and try to understand the audience. Yes? Some of the folks who've responded to me should make that effort in more walks of life. I repeat verbatim my original query.... "Does anyone know Ricky Jay's routine...? I refer to his fabulous History Lesson. My questions are if the routine has been written down anywhere and if he's using combo cups?" Wandboy,Lyle, do you actually read the original post? Did I write that my intent is to copy Ricky Jay's routine? I very much appreciate Bill Palmer and Silverking's responses. They are welcomed as informative and understanding of a fellow traveler's interest. I thank you for raising the bar and lowering the boom. David |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
David:
Don't be too hard on Lyle. He has basically come up through the trenches and has been stung more than once. He also has a tendency to react very quickly. But deep down where it counts, he's good people.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts |
Bill is correct! I have been "stung" more than once and so I get very protective of not only MY material but other people's material as well.
I offer you my apology as I can see your intent was not malicious. Christopher
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Part of being involved in the Magic Café is getting to know populace.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Bill Wilson Special user 536 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-08 09:20, wandboy wrote: Yes dader76 I read your original post, maybe you missed mine, so I have posted it again. As far as I know Mr. Jay's routine has never been in print. As has already been mentioned, he is using a combo set. As Christopher Lyle has pointed out the mechanices of Mr. Jay's routine is quite simple, all done with common sleights and sequences. If you have this knowledge then by watching the routine over and over you may begin to piece together what is being done. Good luck to you. |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
I don't think most of the reactions here were out of line at all - rather, I think they were a natural response to what we've all seen a thousand times. In fact, the only poster to even use the word "steal" was "silverking", when he was criticizing the responses of others, Prior to that I think the answers given were pretty reasonable, though a bit direct and to the point.
There is a closer I have for a stand-up set that I learned from a couple of well-seasoned pros. This particular routine is funny, entertaining and a real fooler. The basic work IS published, but it's in a little-known manuscript, and everything that makes it great was further developed by working professionals. I am eternally grateful that they were willing to share it with me - since probably not 20 guys in the world know the routine. So when I get to perform it and there are magicians in the audience I am often approached by them afterward, and they always have one question: "What's the name of that last trick you did?" Why do they ask that question? There can only be one reason - obviously they want to learn and copy what they've seen. I always answer: "Bob." TW
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts |
When a magic effect is published for the general public (or, more specifically, perhaps, for the general magic community), there is at least implicit permission for it to be used by at least the purchaser of that published work.
Hence, by asking "What's the name of that last trick you did?", I give the questioner the benefit of the doubt and assume that the questioner is at least partially attempting to show respect by trying to track down the published version of the effect so that he might purchase the effect and then have the right to perform it (or at least learn certain moves and tips from the manuscript). Does that mean the right to perform the effect verbatim as published? Probably that too. However, such verbatim performances almost always fall flat and the exact performance and methodology is best used as a springboard for interjecting one's own creative process into an effect--and making it his/her own. (Just as Thomas has obviously done with "the original effect from a little-known manuscript".) That said, I can certainly appreciate Thomas' guarded reply (and reluctance to direct the questioner to the source material) because, in addition to the original published effect, Thomas, by learned experience no doubt, has little or no confidence that a person would not also then appropriate Thomas' unpublished variations and personal handling and bits of business. (Magically speaking, nothing pi**es me off more than to have another "magician" watch me perform an effect that I have honed and "made my own" and then, without specific permission from me to do so, steal my presentation and hard worked variation efforts.) Finally, to further stir up and cloud the mix, there are some effects that are so perfected and so well-known as signature effects of certain magicians that, out of respect for that magician (and the risk of almost certain ridicule by my peers for unmitigated hubris), I would never perform or consider performing--published or not. Just, IMHO; your milage may vary.
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
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mumford Special user 652 Posts |
My thoughts are not meant in any way to offend wandboy, I take him at his word and am sure the intention of his thread was pure. But here's my take on the direction this thread has taken. To me it's a crime when a performer gets credit and/or monetary rewards for stolen work.
The first time I was witness to this was when a street performer, a juggler, worked up a clever scripted five minute piece that he honed over thousands of shows. Sure, his routine included a number of published bits, but like Turk's example, the routine was perfected and was a signature of this person. A rising comedy juggler made his third Johnny Carson appearance - and on it he did my friends routine WORD FOR WORD. And there was nothing the poor street performer could do about it. Thereafter my friend did his routine for a while, and every so often he would be accused of stealing the routine from the guy who was on the Carson show. Today the thief is a successful corporate performer but unknown to the public. But there is some karmatic justice. The victim is no longer known as a juggler, but he is a rich and famous show business personality. I'm not at liberty to reveal the names, but it's likely many here would know the thief's name and positively everyone knows the now famous celebrity. I know this wouldn't happen if someone copied Ricky's Cups & Balls since he's already famous, but if someone asks about something they like that I do, I would use the "Bob" answer suggested by Wayne. I think it's a shame when one's own personal thoughts, writings, or original performance, are exploited by a thief. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I've experienced the same thing. I fixed up the thieves by using a legal means that they did not know existed. It wound up embarrassing a few people. Others asked permission and got it.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Bill Wilson Special user 536 Posts |
I to strongly object to anyone copying material that isn't their's to copy. No offence was taken Mumford.
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mumford Special user 652 Posts |
Bill, what legal means? Leave out the names if necessary, but please tell us the whole story.
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Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-09 15:02, Turk wrote: Even when an effect is published (in print or other media) that the performance rights may be retained by the originator. Tom Stone is one author that I can think of who makes this explicit in his manuscripts.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
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Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts |
Mumford,
Stealing a guy's signature effect and performing it on nationwide TV and then having the originator having to drop the effect or risk being accused of being a copycat of "XYZ"--that had to be doubly galling. If I had been that juggler, I would have had to think long and hard about not mentioning somewhere during all of my future performances of the effect (or immediatley right after the performance) words such as: "Here's my signature effect. In fact, its so good that, after seeing me perform this, "XYZ" then performed it on the Johnny Carson Show.", or, "Thank you very much. I'm delighted that you enjoyed it. It is my signature effect. "XYZ" also liked it very much because after seeing me perform this, "XYZ" paid me his highest compliment by performing it on the Johnny Carson Show.",or, ...you get the picture. (Whether or not I'd interject the words "stole from me" might depend on 1) my mood during a perticular performance of the effect and 2) whether or not the audience might think that I was just trying ot take credit for "XYZ's effect and take a free ride on "XYZ"'s coat tails.) Mike P.S. I read (or saw on some video) somewhere that one performer said he handled this type of situation by making up the name of an effect and/or giving the name of an effect from a very obscure (and either OOP or hard to find) manuscript. If and when the person ever came back and angrily accused the magician of not providing the correct source material, the magicain would then profusely apologize and say, "I'm sorry. My mistake. If it's not in the "ABC" manuscript, it's been soo long ago, I can't recall where I first read of the effect. I'm so sorry."
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
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