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lint Special user Concord, CA 967 Posts |
Marc DeSouza has a very nice "History Lesson" cups routine out. I am sure Ricky's routine was an inspiration for it. I enjoyed it, although it did have an opening "pyramids" line. I hear he goes onto explain the real story later on. (I have only seen the clip on L&L's website.)
-todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
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pepka Inner circle Uh, I'm the one on the right. 5041 Posts |
I've seen Marc do his routine in person several times, and it's beautiful. He actually goes through the entire history of magic in the 6 or 7 minute routine, not just the cups as Ricky does.
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M for Magic Special user 673 Posts |
"The history of the cups and balls is very old. In fact, there is an inscription depicting it on the wall of the oldest pyramid in Egypt...right next to it were written some of the jokes I will be telling you tonight." *wink.
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gadfly3d Special user 963 Posts |
In regard to "creativity and originality," I go with the old saw--
To take everything from one source is plagiarism; to take from many sources is research. Gil Scott |
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Bill Wilson Special user 536 Posts |
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On 2009-05-11 09:42, gadfly3d wrote: That old saw does in a sense bring us all back to the original post. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-11 09:42, gadfly3d wrote: "When you take stuff from one writer, it's plagiarism; but when you take it from many writers, it's research." Wilson Mizner (1876 - 1933) "To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism - to steal from many is research." Steven Wright (1955 - ) Interesting that one of the most original comics should plagiarize the person who basically wrote the phrase.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The recent reference to this old thread gives me a chance to point out something about the research that is currently occurring with respect to the cups and balls.
For more than just a few years, I had been hearing and reading references to Ozanam and Guyot. These two mathematicians had each written something about the cups and balls in a work about "Recreational Mathematics." These two works, which were published about 50 or so years apart, detailed advances in the cups and balls that had taken place since Hocus Pocus Junior was written. But, no translation existed in English. Sean McWeeney, who is a member of the Café here, username fortasse, undertook to have the cups and balls sections of these works translated, and he subsequently edited the translations to make good sense from a magical point of view. This is possibly some of the most important historical information to come forth with respect to the cups and balls in many years, for a number of reasons. There is a lot of material in these two books that has been duplicated in more modern routines. It also tells us what ground has already been plowed. In conjunction with the cups and balls museum, I have been collecting and studying important cups and balls routines. Todd Paoletti (lint) and Dr. Richard Evans have assembled bibliographies of cups and balls literature. Etienne Lorenceau (Lawrence O) has done similar work, as well. The accumulated knowledge about the cups and balls has been increasing very quickly. By having this material widely available to c&b workers, it is becoming possible for us to understand where we have been and where we are going. No matter what the naysayers may think and say, the cups and balls are progressing and will progress because there are dedicated people who are working hard to innovate. Having this material available helps in the process, because it also points out things that have either been rejected or things that have been possible in the past, that we might possibly want to try again with new, more modern materials.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Dave McFarland Regular user Portland, OR 184 Posts |
Bill,
Do you know if 'The Art of Jugling or Legerdemaine' has any information on C&B? --dave |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Yes, sort of...
"Note for this feat you must haue foure boxes made in the manner of extinguishers that-are made to put out candles, but as big againe. But for want of them, you may take small candlesticks, or saltcellar covers, or some such like. Lay three or foure balls before you, and as many boxes or small candlesticks, etc. Then first seem to put one ball into your left hand, and therewithal seem to hold the same fast. Then take one of the boxes etc. or any other thing (having a hollow foot and being great), and seem to put the ball which is thought to be in your left hand underneath the same. And so under the other candlesticks, Boxes, etc. seem to bestowe the other balls, and all this while the beholders will suppose each ball to be under each box or candlestick, etc. This done, use some charm or form of words before set downe, as hey, Fortuna:, :furie:, :nunquam:, :credo, asse, passe.: Then take up the candlestick with one hand and blow, saying, that's gone, you see.: And so likewise look under each candlestick, with like grace and words, for you must remember to carry a good grace and face on the matter, and the beholders will wonder where they are become. But if you in lifting up the candlesticks with your right hand leave all those three or foure balls under one of them, as by use you may easily do, having turned them all downe into your hand and holding them fast with your little and ring finger, and take the box or candlestick etc. with your other fingers and cast the balls up into the hollowneesse thereof (for so they will not roll so soon away), the standers-by will be much astonished, but it will seem wonderful strange, if also in shewing how there remaineth nothing under another of the said candlesticks taken up with your left hand, you leave behind you a great ball or any other thing, the miracle will be the greater." It may not be called "Cups and Balls," but the concepts are definitely there.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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lint Special user Concord, CA 967 Posts |
Thanks for the compliments, Bill.
I think I may be throwing in the towel with my Cups Bibliography. I have a new baby boy at home (8 weeks old, my first!) and don't foresee any free time in the near future for working on it. The good thing is I rarely come across any new additions to it anymore. The bad news is there are lots of bibliographical holes still needing to be filled in. Since I can no longer afford a Conjuring Arts subscription anymore either, that also hampers my progress. Anyone is free to work on it though, and take it to the next level. Hopefully, it has helped some of you fill in holes in your libraries and discover new routines. -Todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
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Dave McFarland Regular user Portland, OR 184 Posts |
Dave V,
Thanks for the quote. I've been meaning to get a copy of that manuscript. --dave |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Scott Jenkins is currently converting the Fred Kaps DVD on his cups and balls routine, and I will soon post it on my new site. http://www.petebiro.com
It may be about a week, as I'm going out of town for a loooooooooooooong weekend.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-09-30 14:26, Dave McFarland wrote: You don't have to look very far. http://masterpaynemagic.com/juggle.htm
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Copies of the Art of Jugling are fairly easy to come by. There are also many different editions of Hocus Pocus, Junior and his half-brother H. Dean, as it is called in the trade, available from almost any college or university library. Some of the online copies are missing pages.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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RS1963 Inner circle 2734 Posts |
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On 2009-05-11 00:38, pepka wrote: Old post and a long time coming for an answer but, Pepka, Ricky Jay does indeed say words to that effect on the H.B.O. show 'Ricky Jay and His 52 Assistants.' |
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Dave McFarland Regular user Portland, OR 184 Posts |
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You don't have to look very far. Fantastic! Thanks, Dave. |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
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On 2009-05-11 01:59, lint wrote: Something that has confused me every time I've seen Marc's routine (and maybe this is a minor thing but I'm still curious) is the way he pronounces Dai Vernon's first name...I've always heard it pronounced like 'Die,' but Marc says 'Day.' Any clarification here?
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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spatlind Special user still moving 863 Posts |
I've heard Harry Lorayne (I think) say in an interview that he was "Day" on the east coast, before he went west.
Actions lie louder than words - Carolyn Wells
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature - Frank Lloyd Wright. |
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Since his real first name was David, I would assume that "Day" was the more accurate pronunciation, or at least the earlier one.
I think when Vernon was asked which was correct he replied "EEther, or EYEther"
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The pronunciation of Vernon's name has been a somewhat controversial subject for a long time. His real name was David Verner or Dave Verner. The morphing of Dave Verner to Dai Vernon is not difficult to understand. He answered to either name.
Most people pronounced it "Professor."
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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