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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Polly wants a cracker... » » Dove bag pin release (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dynamike
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I have been working on enhancing my Twin Dove Production from a silk (Knots Off Silk). I wanted to be a little creative so there would be a faster release so the doves would appear quicker. I ran into the idea where a straight pin would be stabilized inside the dove holder on a string keeping the dove harness closed with some type of connection. When a string/wire pulls out the dove harness, it is released from the stabilized pin. It makes a quick opening of the dove harness inside of the silk. There is no need to release the velcro/clip/snap/etc. To help the pin from coming out of the dove harness to early, a spring can be stabilized to keep pressure on the pin against the harness. Only the right amount of pressure can pull the pin lose.

Have anyone you know of put this idea together already?

What are the disadvantages of the quick stabilized pin released I described above?
Dave Scribner
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Mike, I don't like the idea of having a pin so close to the dove. What you are looking to achieve is a method already in existance. Fasten a safety pin to one end of a strand of monofilament line. Thread the other end through a large needle. After you put the dove in the harness, you sew it closed loosely across the top and take off the needle. Now load the dove as usual. When you steal the harness, the line will come out of the harness and fall under your coat. The harness will be free to open. You just have to be careful that it doesn't open too soon. You have to hold it closed with your hand until the right moment.
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tdowell2007
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Mike,
dave is correct. I know Tony Clark has a harness that uses this method. I used it for awhile but stopped due to a change in routine. It works wonderfully. Again, there is no need for a pin to hold the harness closed, the monofiliment will work perfectly (think fabric hinge). Color it (the line) black or get use black monofiliment and the audience will never see the line. Excellent thinking BTW.....but the Greats before us thought of this...

Dave ~ When the book coming out.....? Smile
dove-boy
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The other option is to get Amos Levkovitch's original effortless release dove bag....it works some the same theory (once the dove bag release from the packet...it will open leaving the fishing thread behind) but even easier as compared with the hinge method, yup Tony has a version but I found the plastic hinge hole a little too tiny...think Amos's version is easier , safer & really fast Smile
Bob Sanders
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Look in a hobby shop that sells motorized model planes. They have Nylon hinges that can be made into "loose pin" hinges. Closed the hinge pin is in the barrels of the hinge. Pull it out and the hinge separates. An advantage of the nylon hinge is that it is transparent! (It also make no noise but music should cover that no matter what method you use.) I like using a gem clip for the pin. The loop is larger than the "pin".

Enjoy!

Bob Sanders
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Kyle^Ravin
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Shimada's Video covers somethin similar with hinges...if my memory does not fail me...

JOE YU!! Hello man! not seen you on the Café for some time!
haywire
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Tony clark sells holders already off the shelf like this. Myself, I don't find any problem with general grants one handed release holders for the double I do...

Dynamike, I don't think its worth the effort or expense to switch. Only once in maybe 100 performances, I have to fidget a bit with the holders, in which case I bring them together, wink and blow on the silks while getting it open.

Just my opinion, but sometimes we overcomplicate things trying to make improvements that aren't really necessary.


Steven
dove-boy
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Hi Kyle Smile

Me always on the Café Smile Opps, never see you at the last SAM meeting...hope you are doing great! Smile

btw, Shimada never covers the hinge method...he covers his original method of using metal & snaps on his own dove bags....I bought 3 of his bags, way back in 1997..wow, almost 12 years back...that time one Shimada's bag cost about US$47.50, hand sewn by his ex wife Denna(s.p)

Shimada's bag is great except he uses the wrong material, cotton.....sadly now his original idea of metal snap release , pattern, size of his bag is duplicate by Bazar de Magia in Argentina, widely sold at all magic shop Smile

In my view, I bought countless of bags with different release....the best bag in my view is still Burno Ray in France & the best shop that sell dove bag fabric & 100% matching silks that uses by Jason Byne, David Bass, Victor Cephas, Tomsoni, Tony Clark, Vito Lupo...so many dove workers..is SILKSRUS...very very sad, they are no longer in business Smile
Dynamike
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I want to know all I can about dove apparatus. It looks like I should invest in Tony Clarks "Instant Dove Release": http://www.tonyclarkmagic.com/storefront......vstart=6 and Amos Levkovitch's "Dove Holders": http://www.amosmagic.com/prod_accessories.html

If my idea process has a big difference to what is already made, I will make one using the tips you guys described above.

And imagine if the pin was a bobby pin http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co......_pin.jpg going thru a hinge to keep it closed. The bobby pin is rounded at the ends making it safe for the dove. The curved end is already in place for the monofilament line to tie on. The bobby pin will have pressure touching against the hinge so it will not slide out too easy. But if the monofilament line is short enough to keep the bobby pin from sticking out of the dove holder, it might be a little difficult reloading the dove harness inside the almost tight holder to slide the bobby pin back into the hinge.

Thanks everybody for your time.
Dave Scribner
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The difference between Tony Clarks and Amos Levkovitches method is as stated above, Tony's uses a plastic hinge which the monofilament line passes through like a pin as Bob stated. With Amos's, you just loosely sew the monofilament across the top of the bag once loaded. In both cases, the line just falls under the coat as the holder is removed.

Mike, what you do is fasten a safety pin to the end of the line. "sew" the dove in the bag first. Feed the safety pin end through the end of the pocket (you leave a small opening at the back of the back when sewing it in your coat)and pin it to the coat. That's makes it easy to load. The only downside is that after many performances, you have to use a new holder. The multiple "sewing" for each show will leave the top of the holder with holders and will wear out. If I were doing that many shows though, I would be changing my holders anyway.

Tony, the book has been stalled for awhile. My fault, just lazy. I'm working on a dove lecture right now. The first one will be in Aug. That will spur me on to complete the book.
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Dynamike
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I use a dove vest. Can Tony's or Amos' harness fit in with a vest?
Regan
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Darn....you guys are making life too complicated for me! Smile I want a holder with the best one-handed release. I thought I had made my mind up and go with General Grants dove holders. Now I am wondering again. I heard that Shamada's were popular, but now unavailable. Are Bazar De Magia's holders made like Shamada's? Are they as good? And what about Amos'?

Would it be bad if I started another thread about dove holders? I know there has been a lot of discussion about in the past, but I would love to see comparisons of them all at one place.

Regan
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Dave Scribner
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Mike, you do the same as you would if you were just using pockets. Just cut a small slit in the back of the vest pocket and feed the safety pin through it
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Dynamike
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Thank you very much everybody, I appreciate it. I think the support you have given me will me eliminate the silk in mouth usage. I was trying to eliminate that earlier: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=5602014

Thanks again.
James Adamson
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I beleive that most all of the auto releases stated above where based somewhat on the Slydini idea.

I have see Tony Clark's and Amos' and was curious just what he did with the needle as he never explained it in his lecture at SEAM 2008 in Atlanta. Also, Amos' uses a zipper on the bottom of the holder to load the dove, very unusual.
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Dave Scribner
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Amos does that so he can sew the holder before loading the dove. It's just a safety issue.
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Bob Sanders
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Unfortunately I am a refugee from the recording industry and for years had an endless supply of broken guitar strings. The E (bottom) string is great for "sewing" without a needle and the bead at the end can be attached permanently to the dove harness. Thus, with one forward movement of the free hand the thumb hooks and pulls the "sewing" loose and the guitar string stays with the harness. (Don't wet your hands! Ouch!)

Regan,

You are a music man. I am surprised that you didn't post this. Are you holding out on us?

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

PS --- Sharpie Pen can dull the shine of the metal guitar string to keep the stage lights from picking it up. Often, well used strings don't shine anyway.
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Regan
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Bob,

Music man, yes. Dove, man no! It seems the guitar string would work great with the hinge-type release. Be carful though, those high E strings can stick just about like a needle!

I am really considering taking the plunge into the world of doves though. I'm more serious than ever. I have been following this and reading other threads trying to find out about all the various holders. What a task!!!!!

I definitely want a holder with a one-hand release, and I think I want one made of satin, but there are so many factors! The release systems are many, some are cotton and some are satin, some cover the entire bird and some do not, some are too small for large birds while some are larger but harder to conceal, some open instantly and some do not, some are easier to open with one hand than others..........what else did I miss?

This is all making my head swim!

Regan
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Bob Sanders
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Regan,

Good satin is not washable! The ones I use most are nylon tricot (like a lady's slip) and they are machine washable, slide like butter and (the even better part) compress like silk to be palmed off! They also have some stretch like lycra to hold the bird safer.

Otherwise, I use plain ole cotton! In an emergency, I have even used a sock top!

A fundamental rule for me is that I always want to be able to see the animal's head, doves included.

Bob Sanders
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Regan
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Thanks Bob. I had not really considered that. See, I told you I'm not a dove man! I was just thinking the slicker the better, but I guess as long as the dove pocket is satin most anything will slide easily.

Now tell me who makes holders out of thie nylon tricot.

Regan
Mister Mystery
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