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bobser
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I know that most good hypnotists bring the hypnotee out before re-inducing (several times)in the belief this deepens them (true) but 'Fractionation' is something else, and I'd like to know more about it.
I do know this is a method of induction and deepening, linked to rousing the hypnotee where they are asked to recount the sensations which they experienced. Then the hypnotee is re-induced and that information is re-fed to them with the expectation that they will go deeper into trance. This is repeated until the patient is in the required depth of trance. I also know that NLP-ers also look at Fractionation.
Oskar Vogt was the man who introduced this (circa 1903)and I simply want to know if anyone has any more information on this, or can guide me to some readings on Vogt.
Thanks,
bobser
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mindpunisher
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If you want to skip the technical jargon. just think of it as dipping someone in to a state then taking them out then putting them back in again. It really is that simple. Even conversationally you could imagine your self using this technique and seeing yourself get better results with ease. And some times when you stop thinking about something it comes easily flows int your mind and you feel really good knowing youve just mastered something....

But that doesn't happen often. Most times we find things difficult we try and find complicated ways to create results that are really simple....


But when we find everything flowing easily it feels really good to discover that you didn't have to struggle worry or need half the theory...a part of you knew how to do it all along...And as soon as you realise that - you can see yourself use fractination with ease...sometimes
Nongard1
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MP and I agree one more time... I am teaching a class next week, will posta video of a fractination induction on youtube next weekend, because people will find it helpful (although I probaly have one on youtube in some format or another).

Fractination can be a simple number count 10-9-8-7, 9-8-7-6-5-4, 6-5-4-3-2-1-0 or a series of eye open, eye closed "baby steps" into hypnosis, which is ideal for a nervous or controling client...

I will post a link to video...
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis
Decomposed
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Boy, looking forward to the video Richard. You are always giving back.

Candin
bobser
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Thanks. I THINK Fractionation is a teenselie weenselie bit different from the reinduction most hypnotists (including myself) use. I suspect that, in the therapy room, it's a tad stronger. ie: not only am I getting them used to 'the state' but I'm also re-planting the story line? Which may give both convincers and a push to continue to verbalise the story/reason why they have this particular challenge in the first place.
I do hope this makes some sense? I look forward to seeing Richard's clip.
bobser
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mindpunisher
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Bobser its much simpler than that. Its a case of seeing the mind like a piece of cardboard. The more you bend it forwards or backwards the easier it is to bend it.

If you look at my post above. You'll see that I talk about a state describe it then bring you out by talking about the opposite state (the one you are experiencing just now by complicating things) then describe the sate I want you to go into again.

It can be used conversationally to lead someone's thinking as well as in a formal induction.
bobser
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I think I completely understand exactly what you're saying MP. BUT you can't understand me and I'm not sure what else I can say to get you to grasp it. Can anyone else help? Hello? Or is it cos I is very clever?
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mindpunisher
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I don't think there is anything to grasp. you want hypnotise someone don't you?
Mark Davies
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Bobser ,Your a brilliant hypnotist, but so analitical, just do what you do , stop searching for more answers your going to mess your self up.
Cheers mark
bobser
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On 2009-05-10 18:45, mindpunisher wrote:
I don't think there is anything to grasp. you want hypnotise someone don't you?

Good point. But I want to do more than that ...if possible. I want to actually fix people and I think theres maybe stuff out there that I might learn. I've since talked to a couple psychologists who do clinical hypnotherapy and they do believe that this particular part of hypnosis is a dychotomy. In so much as some believe it's one thing and the others beieve it's also that thing but with something added on. 'I' think they're right and I want you mindpunisher and Mark to change your minds, think about it deeply and come back and enlighten me. And I want you to do it now, and I want it in green!
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dmkraig
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On 2009-05-11 05:18, bobser wrote: I want to actually fix people and I think theres maybe stuff out there that I might learn.


Perhaps the first thing to learn is that people aren't machines that get "broken." Therefore, there is nothing to "fix."

Everyone does the best they can with the experience, training, and abilities they have. The problem is that people don't have the training to make desired changes. Hypnotherapists are basically nothing more than tour guides, leading people to the best way(s) to change.

We don't fix anything. People aren't broken. We help people change.

If you want to fix something, become a computer repair professional.
silverfire9
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Bobser, fractionation is simply the repeated emergence and reinduction that you're already familiar with. You can certainly tack on the soliciting of their experience and feeding it back to them, and that might indeed make for an even more powerful experience. Try it and find out.

If I remember correctly from my training, fractionation arose from Dave Elman observing that clients went deeper at each session and being a little frustrated at how many sessions it took before they were at the level he wanted them to be at. He started experimenting with ways to make that happen faster and found that emergence and reinduction in the same session had the same effect. And there was his answer: do it all in the one session, enabling him to get to work on the therapy sooner.

That said, there are schools of thought (NLP, for example) that say you don't need to get them down to somnambulistic levels before therapeutic work can be done. Even the lightest trance is adequate.

I think both ideas have validity; the deeper you are, the more that can be done and the less "effort" is required to do it, but even at a light trance, a lot of work can be done in a relatively short amount of time.

Joshua
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2009-05-11 05:18, bobser wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-05-10 18:45, mindpunisher wrote:
I don't think there is anything to grasp. you want hypnotise someone don't you?

Good point. But I want to do more than that ...if possible. I want to actually fix people and I think theres maybe stuff out there that I might learn. I've since talked to a couple psychologists who do clinical hypnotherapy and they do believe that this particular part of hypnosis is a dychotomy. In so much as some believe it's one thing and the others beieve it's also that thing but with something added on. 'I' think they're right and I want you mindpunisher and Mark to change your minds, think about it deeply and come back and enlighten me. And I want you to do it now, and I want it in green!


Bobser if you want to fix people then you need to learn how to do therapy. Fractination isn't therapy. Hypnosis isn't therapy. The depth of trance isn't therapy.

You need to learn complete systems.

What I will tell you though -there are far more powerful techniques than putting someone in atrance and giving suggestions. That in itself is a very surface basic thing to do. In general it won't "fix" people.

Mild amxiety basic help to change habits is about its limits. As compliment to other work its quite effective. But as the core therapy its not that powerful. However it is what the public expect so I always include it in therapy sessions after the real change work has took place. So that their conscious expectations are met.
bobser
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I understand that MP. I'm actually a pretty good therapist I think. My background is rooted in neither suggestion therapy nor parts theory but rather in that of psycho-analysis. However I consider myself to be a free association therapist (not Fruedian)but don't knock suggestion or parts theory. In fact I'm rather getting to like parts.
Joshua I like your answer and absolutely agree with the NLPers about lightness of trance being able to create the same results as depth of trance. Many phobias can be totally released in the lightest of trances.
Dmcraig: maybe the first thing to learn is that people actually ARE machines that get broken. Isn't that just as interesting a question?

bobser
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mindpunisher
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The broken machine analogy isn't really helpful in NLP terms. The presuposition is that that everyone operates perfectly within the choices they have at present. Therapy just gives them more choices and the unconscious always chooses the best choice.

Ill repeat Bobser asking about fractination to to "fix" someone is like going to a garage and buying a tyre when in actual fact you need a car.
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2009-05-11 17:33, bobser wrote:
Dmkraig: maybe the first thing to learn is that people actually ARE machines that get broken. Isn't that just as interesting a question?


It is if your mind is locked into an industrial revolution paradigm and have a world view based in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Personally, I prefer a more modern approach that is apropos to the 21st century, but to each person does the best they can with their education, experience, and belief system.
bobser
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Fair enough MP but in believing the unconcious always chooses the best course one might argue that that in itself is yet another presupposition.
dmcraig, not the best answer you've ever given. But in all fairness to you I'd say it was par for the course. Just how DO you communicate with people out there?
Heres some advice you won't take;'If you can't ask the quetions you can't get the answers'. Yet it's cosy to run with the crowd innit?
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dmkraig
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I communicate with people by going to where they are rather then by assuming they are where I am. It's called "developing rapport."

Then, by talking and asking questions, I help them move away from their mechanistic, deterministic preconceptions--such as you gave with your wanting to "fix" people--I move from simple rapport to leading a person to a place where they are more open to change and where hypnotherapy is more likely to be rapidly effective.

For example, if someone comes to me insisting that they are addicted to smoking cigarettes, I start by asking how they know this. I give examples that show they are not addicted, so eventually, they come to the conclusion that their belief in their addiction comes from what they've read in the media. I then ask them if they've ever read things in the media that turned out not to be true.

In short, I begin by acknowledge their belief that they are addicted without agreeing with their belief. Through questioning, I get them to believe that MAYBE they are not addicted as they have shown non-addictive behavior and got the information about addiction from sources that have often been in error. This builds up the idea that behavior change through suggestions given during hypnosis is possible because maybe they're not addicted but just have a habit.

You'd know all this if you were trained in hypnotherapy and were coming from a modern hypnotherapeutic paradigm rather than centuries-old, outdated, mechanistic concepts as you seem to want to do.
bobser
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Strange, that's exactly what I do, but without the fat dictionary rammed in my gob.
And as far as developing rapport goes you need to read back over the stuff you've dribbled and been hammered for by the inmates in here.
You bragged earlier you run a forum but you'd rather not say who or what you are, other than scribble some powerful analogies you copied and pasted off the internet. But my God, with your tuppence halfpenny delusions of grandeur, you do make me laugh. I've gotta' give you that. Don't ever leave 'craigie'. Don't you ever leave!
Bet your next post is gonna double me over.
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mindpunisher
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Quote:
On 2009-05-12 07:57, bobser wrote:
Fair enough MP but in believing the unconcious always chooses the best course one might argue that that in itself is yet another presupposition.
dmcraig, not the best answer you've ever given. But in all fairness to you I'd say it was par for the course. Just how DO you communicate with people out there?
Heres some advice you won't take;'If you can't ask the quetions you can't get the answers'. Yet it's cosy to run with the crowd innit?



Its all presupposition anyway. Did the therapy work or the presupposition that it will work that really made the change?

Maybe... maybe not ....maybe...no one knows. The idea or notion that the unconscious knows best and always picks the best choice available (which I believe to be true) allows you to work with with the unconscious and by pass resistence. Which is why it is a lot more effective than plain suggestion therapy. Which it will always resist.
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