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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Brilliant! This is one of my pet peeves as well, your article should be required reading.
I see so many self labeled "consultants" and "designers" that are selling junk that never should be out. Aren't consultants and designers supposed to have achieved "Mastery of the Craft" to inspire and create effects? It seems that the current thinking is that after graduation from school you are an expert. When I was younger, graduation was when you STARTED really learning about the real world. You apprenticed for years, then became a tradesman or journeyman to practice your craft professionally. After years of learning and real world knowledge, you became a Master when you had literally mastered every facet of the craft enough to solve any problem and teach those solutions effectively. This Apprentice-Journeyman-Master model is a great way to learn and assure the standards of a craft. Even in academia, the tradition survives, with PhD students as apprentices, post-docs as journeymen and professors as masters. lol... Or then again, you could just write a book and call yourself what you want.
Ray Pierce
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mormonyoyoman Inner circle I dug 5,000 postholes, but I have only 2440 Posts |
Boy howdy, Scott -- Have you been reading the minds of some of us in the mentalism community? We're having a big "discussion" right now about something that a few of us think is a really bad prop and others (especially Big Names) say is the best thing to come out in a decade or so. And it all comes down to having the experience to have worked something for a decade or two to iron out all the bugs.
As always, an outstanding entry on an outstanding blog. *jeep! --Grandpa Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
--Grandpa Chet |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Actually, Chet, I wrote that article back in '06! So maybe I have precognition!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
Very good articles on your blog site.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Hey thanks, Ed!
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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mormonyoyoman Inner circle I dug 5,000 postholes, but I have only 2440 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-04 21:07, Scott F. Guinn wrote: Did you have it sealed in a mayonnaise mayonnaise jar on the front porch of Funk & Wagnall's? *jeep! --Grandpa Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
--Grandpa Chet |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
Thanks for the great article, Scott. When I’m not doing magic, I’m an electrical engineer. A long time ago, I left graduate school and entered the job market. I interviewed with Hewlett-Packard, and they offered me a job. The amount of money that they offered seemed like a fortune to me back in those days. Heck, the amount that was being taken out of my check for taxes was more than I used to earn in my previous job!
One my way to work that first day, I thought I was God’s gift to engineering. I was on top of the world. I spent the first day or so acquiring the basic knowledge that I need to work at HP. Then, on day two, reality started to sink in. My new boss let me sit in on a few of the meetings with the technical team. I started to realize that I was competing against some very smart guys. My confidence started to sag a bit. Then, I had my first meeting with my boss. He gave me an assignment that looked completely impossible to me at the time. I was responsible for a portion of the new wafer fab. I had the responsibility to figure out which equipment was best for the new furnace aisle, and I had a budget of two million dollars. I was asked to put together a purchase order and a technical proposal to convince upper management that we were buying the right equipment. Even though I knew that I couldn’t succeed, I said that I’d take the assignment. I left the office with a terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach. At that point, I was certain that my career would be short-lived. Then, I realized that there was only one thing to do. I’d admit to my boss that I didn’t have the knowledge and experience to do this job. After dreading my encounter with him, I finally let him know that I just couldn’t do it. He didn’t seem surprised. In fact, he even smiled and said, “No, you really don’t have what it takes to do what I’ve asked.” Much to my surprise, I wasn’t fired on the spot. Instead, my boss put me on a team with two other experienced engineers. In a couple of months, we had a purchase order and a technical proposal, and the equipment was ordered. I later found out that at this particular division in HP, this type of assignment for new engineers was a standard practice. The company knew that it was important for new engineers to realize that when they start their careers, they’re only apprentices. It’s important to have them fail at this point in their career so that they’ll seek out the experienced engineers and begin the real world learning process. It is estimated that it takes at least 10,000 hours of ‘flight time’ to gain expertise in most fields. To me, that sounds about right.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-05 12:36, BarryFernelius wrote: Great story! We were on the road doing a tour of Canada and a couple of us were talking about getting tricks down solid. A younger performer asked Marvyn Roy how long it took him to get a trick down where it was solid. Was it a month, 2 months, 6 months... and without blinking, Marvyn said "10 years". After doing this for years, I realize he was right on the money. The effects I've been doing for 10 + years are my go to routines that I don't have to worry about as they are bullet proof. Patience.
Ray Pierce
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markmiller Special user 731 Posts |
Why do you think guys who've been doing magic less than ten years feel justified or qualified to market tricks and go on lecture tours?
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msmaster Special user 522 Posts |
There are exceptions to every rule, but if one wants to make a living in magic and for one reason or another they can't cut it as a performer they become a lecturer/trick marketer.
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
Not sure I'd call that a "rule". Some of the very best magicians in the world are on the lecture circuit, and the guys who aren't good don't last long typically. So I would have to disagree with that assessment.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-05 15:51, markmiller wrote: It's basically because of ignorance. They think they have figured out the inside track on something, because they can fool all of their friends. They don't realize that they really don't have much depth in magic. They might have one or two semi-original ideas, but most of them don't know what's original and what isn't. When I think about people who have no business lecturing, I think about a fellow who traveled with an experienced lecturer. He did a cups and balls routine that used three cups and three balls, somehow thinking he was one of the first to do so. He had heard of "some old guy" who had done a similar routine "a long time ago." That "old guy" was Ken Brooke, and the routine was hidden in a couple of the standard texts on magic. A friend of mine from Germany told me that after he had gotten his degree in electrical engineering, he went to work for a German automobile manufacturer. He thought he was ready to redesign the wiring for this automotive giant. He spent the first six months sweeping the floor. One day, one of the techs asked him to clean his wrenches for him. A couple of months later, another one of the techs asked him to hand him a 9 mm combination wrench. And that's the way he became an electrical designer and technician for the company. It was a gradual process. The degree was just the key to the employee's entrance.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Anyone magician who buys a trick deserves what he gets for being too lazy to make up his own.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
I don't know that I agree with that, Tommy. many of the best performers ever were not really creators. Fred Kaps did mostly other people's creations. Copperfield, too.
Further, for the most part, new magicians IMO should learn the basics and principles from others before worrying about trying to create their own stuff. It is unlikely that a dilettante will be able to come up with anything even remotely approaching a Roy Walton, a David Roth, a Paul Osborne, a Jim Steinmeyer, a Harold Rice, or a Harlan Tarbell.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
I agree with your point but disagree on your Fred Kaps example. Dai Vernon, who left the deepest imprint in XXth century magic, would have been, IMHO, a better example.
Fred did create most of his effects and/or methods for effects and launched some new trends in magical effects (floating cork, ring on glass stem, upright cups and balls, purse frame, Chinese coins...) There is no doubt that new magicians should learn the basics and principles from others before worrying about trying to create their own stuff. However if instead of considering the creation of tricks from the stand point of well known editors, to look at tricks themselves, you would find that most of the effects which were created came from the time when magicians were still amateurs. This was one of the discussion topics I had with Tommy Wonder and I still think that "amateur" is too often confused with "beginner": it is different. "Amateur" comes from latine "amare" which means to "love". Thus I would agree that lots of beginners are not really amateurs because loving means some form of respect. Lots of beginners are arrogant ego projectors but not amateurs. The fabulous magicians that you name are creators but a lot of what they published was not, from their own admission, their own creation (which should in no way tarnish their gigantic contribution to our art). I like it when new young faces pop out with some form of genius (remember when David Williamson, or -later- magicians like Joshua Jay popped up). For this to keep on happening we have to allow freedom in the learning and the searching... Lots of charcoal has to be moved to find a diamond. I still like the idea that diamonds are getting a better opportunity than ever to come to the surface from a mass of black dirtying dust. I come from the oldest family of art dealers (our family gallery dates back to 1756), thus I learned that art doesn't come only in one way: Renoir painted a lot and most of it was crap but he produced a certain number of undeniable gems. Claude Monet painted a huge amount of canvasses and most of it was great. Edgar Manet painted very little but 99% of his painting went down in history. There is no pattern, but Degas claimed that "art should be discouraged" (meaning that then only the one with the urge will keep on). I'm not sure I agree with Degas, even if I often feel outraged by beginners.
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
In a recent radio broadcast by the American Endowment for the Arts, it was noted that most art -- music, dance, etc. is not done by professionals, but by small groups of enthusiasts in the homes, parks and gardens. Surely this idea applies to performance magic as well. If Lawrence's observations are taken to heart, then creativity is deminished when one becomes too professional.
For me, learning basics as building blocks for innovation is one thing -- copying another magician just because they are famous is something else. I was once told that the only difference between an amateur magician and a professional one is the number of effects you can do well; that the audience should never know which you are. Certainly, "getting paid" is not the mark of a professional IMHO.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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janeric New user Fort Augustus, Loch Ness, Scotland 14 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-06-16 20:13, tommy wrote: This is a bit harsh. I seriously doubt that there is a single magician working today whose repertoire doesn't include something invented by someone else. How many tricks do you think there are, anyway? There were about 6 last time I counted. All the rest is just variations on a theme. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
By that you likely mean basic effect types or categories which is kind of abstract - and there are more than six if you have the book which originally offered the analysis.
The issue Tommy was going after is one of finding what themes and presentations work for each performer and then working to make any trick one touches ones own in performance.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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janeric New user Fort Augustus, Loch Ness, Scotland 14 Posts |
No, Really? I said "about 6" because the number referred to in the original analysis isn't the thing at issue. Everyone knows that if you use someone else's plotting and script you just sound like someone else, but the point I was making is that to criticise people for not being completely original is ludicrous. Nobody is.
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