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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » If right you win, if wrong you lose... » » You folks have any questions? (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Tom Bartlett
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Quote:
On 2009-06-18 21:28, Chad wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-06-18 16:19, Tom Bartlett wrote:
Topandball,

I certainly think you are right that people who do the shell game or deal drugs and commit murder con themselves first into believing that what they are doing is ok, that they are the injured party and they are just getting even for the injustice they have suffered but believe me it crosses all racial, gender and ethnic lines and reaches from the bottom of the economic base to the top of the corporate ladder and all the way to the white house.


Tom, I'm a little surprised about how righteous you sound. You're a shell maker for goodness sakes. If you don't like the real deal, then stop flirting around the edges and profitting ta boot. There's more than a little hipocracy in that.

Topandball is offering some great information. I happen to know a shell worker/3CM guy who has not hustled in a few years now. Topandball's posts are bang on what I've been told.

If ya don't like it Tom, take your ball and go home. We won't mind. Just don't jump on the hustling joint of a magic forum and start profitising on a soap box. Get off your computer and go to church if you wanna be around like minds.
I make shells for entertainers the real deal as you put it would never pay for my shells, so if they have a set they must have stolen them from someone who paid hard earned money for them.

The man that taught me to make the shell when I was a teen was as charming and charismatic as any con man more than most, a man the lowest morals and felt no guilt for any thing he ever did. I have earned the right to speak about this subject and try to make others aware of this type of monster.

So as far as my comments go, if you don't like the truth you can take someone else’s ball and go your own way.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
topandball
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Thanks, Chad, for jumping up in my defense. I'm a little conflicted, though, because I pretty much agree with Tom. However, Tom, the morals of the thing are pretty clear. It's illegal, dishonest, and it hurts people to play this game for money. Everyone here should be aquainted with that. All I want to do is give ya'll some insight into the world that the game you use for entertainment comes from.

mota, I'll get to your very good questions after dinner.

-B
"Gamblin' Sam from Birmingham, I learned this game in Vietnam"
R.I.P. Haynes, the ORIGINAL "Gamblin' Sam"
Tom Bartlett
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Topandball


I don’t think he was defending you as much as he was defending himself.

I had the impression you where here for the very reason you just stated and yes I was agreeing with you and added some food for thought, to what you had already posted.

I feel I’m still paying restitution for my part in such a shell game from when I was still wet behind the ears, doing my best to see no others fall victim to such scams.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
topandball
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How many of your team have the skills to work the mechanics?

The people I've worked with have all been able to do everything. That's cross-country road players though, which is really a higher class of player. people who stay in their home city all the time, some of them only ever learn to stick.

... I assume if your the guy tossing the cards your the target for cops, so how "disposable" are you?

not at all. You are holding all the money, for one. And there is an ethic about that as well. You can count on your mob to bail you out of jail. When we got knocked in TN, we ended up broke. All the other players in town came by the hotel and each gave us a few hundred bucks to keep us going.

If it isn't just for the money what is it for?

I don't know if you've ever experienced drug or gambling addiction. It's a high like no other to play a mark beautifully, leaving him broke, and still laughing (sometimes). It's very similar to drug addiction - that's the best way to describe it.

How do you see yourself?

See above.

What is your "role" in society?

No positive role, except maybe a few people learn an important lesson. I all honesty, a mark will always be a mark; they just might not fall for the same thing twice, but they will fall for something else down the road. Some might learn their lesson.

Do your groups stay together a long time?

If Haynes aka Gambling Sam were still living, I'd still be with the same mob now, and that would make 4 years or more. When we met other players on the road, we'd mob up for the day. But the core mob that I came into had been playing together for many years in Philly.

Do you ever have romantic issues within the group?

Not me. Heard of things with female players though.

Do you talk your own language when you aren't hustling?

Yes. We have a whole set of lingo that we use, ad well as saying some words in carny.

What's a week in the life like?

Hopefully, we make some money. Sometimes you end up broke. Travel a lot. Hurry up and wait. Play poker and dice (yes, I trimmed players. They're a major mark for me for gambling).

Great questions! Keep them coming guys, I'm feeling like I'm in a revealing type mood lol.

Tom, I hear ya man. You're doing what you gotta do. Re. preventing others from falling victim, you're fighting an uphill battle. Some people are just determined to be marks, and you can't wake the dead.

Re. the morality of this, I believe that the mark's loss is caused by his inclination to take advantage of someone, and he is responsible for his actions. I also firmly believe that this fact does not do anything to mitigate our culpability for being the agent of that loss.

-B
"Gamblin' Sam from Birmingham, I learned this game in Vietnam"
R.I.P. Haynes, the ORIGINAL "Gamblin' Sam"
topandball
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Mota, your questions are very deep, and I want to elaborate on them at another time. If I haven't more thoroughly answered the following questions withing like a week or two, please remind me.

How do you see yourself?
What is your "role" in society?
Do you talk your own language when you aren't hustling?

-B
"Gamblin' Sam from Birmingham, I learned this game in Vietnam"
R.I.P. Haynes, the ORIGINAL "Gamblin' Sam"
Jamie D. Grant
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Topandball,

To correlate with my other thread:

1) Do you ever work by yourself?

and

2) How much did you (personally, not the entire mob) make today? And if you weren't out today, then the last day you went out?

This is amazing and insightful information you're giving, btw.

~jamie
http://www.whatizit.net
TRICK OF THE YEAR: Industrial Revelation, BOOK OF THE YEAR: The Approach, The AIP Bottle, and my new book Scenic 52, can all be found over here: SendWonder.com
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topandball
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1) Yes, when I find a mark and I'm not with a mob.

2) Well, at the moment I'm on the road with another thing, not playing so much at this game. So I can't really give you a direct answer. Were I working with a mob, I personally would have made today anywhere from a few hundred bucks (often) to a few thousand (far less often)

Wish I could give you a more interesting answer lol. (I REALLY wish I could tell you something like "40 thousand")

-B
"Gamblin' Sam from Birmingham, I learned this game in Vietnam"
R.I.P. Haynes, the ORIGINAL "Gamblin' Sam"
MagicSanta
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Have you ever stood on a hill over looking a city or town and yelled "Get ready, cuz I'm taking you down!" and then laughed like a maniac while flicking a cigarette down and stomping it?
topandball
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LOL!!! I'm going to do that! It will feel so GOOD!
"Gamblin' Sam from Birmingham, I learned this game in Vietnam"
R.I.P. Haynes, the ORIGINAL "Gamblin' Sam"
FunTimeAl
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Quote:
Tom Bartlett wrote:
The man that taught me to make the shell when I was a teen was as charming and charismatic as any con man more than most, a man the lowest morals and felt no guilt for any thing he ever did. I have earned the right to speak about this subject and try to make others aware of this type of monster.


I have no idea how "knowing some dude" qualifies you as "earning the right" to talk about anything.

That's like some kid whose dad was in the military trying to talk with me about the Marine Corps. If ya ain't been there, then you have NO right to talk about it. You're just talking smack.

What's more. Don't tell me a gambling casino owner is going to make it into a high level of heaven than a shell game worker. Those places don't have multi-million dollar establishments because of a couple "lucky" roles of the dice. They calculate the experimental probability of their games with extreme precision. So, the shell game offers no chance to win. If some people don't understand that gambling is bad for your soul (and pocket book), then why should the casinos be the only ones to rake in the money?

More to the point.

Topandball, I'd like to know what happens when some mark wants his money back. Do you just yell "cops" and run? Turn the big guy (in the mob) on him? Or does he typically just feel bashful and slink off?

Do you think the losers ever catch on to the fact that it's not just one guy working this game?

If someone shouts "hey, these guys are working together" what do you do then?

How do you get rid of this guy and not ruin your work spot (should I call it a pitch?)

How do you take a guy for all he's worth and then get him to leave and bring in a new guy with money without a "losing" atmosphere.

Are you just constantly keeping multiple marks in play and interspersing that with one of your mob winning? Seems like people would catch on if they hung out and watched long enough.
FunTimeAl
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Whoops...meant to say the casinos calculate the Theoretical Prob. The geek in me couldn't let that one slip Smile
Tom Bartlett
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Chad,

You sound like an angry young man conning himself into believing he has the right, to take whatever he wants, when ever he wants, from everyone he wants. That is truly a sad way to live your life. But I’m sure what topanball or I have to say about it wont change a thing.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
silverking
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How about we cut the preaching in this thread (and forum).

It's really not welcome, asked for, or on the topic in terms of what management set this forum up for in the first place.

Nobody gives a rats a_ss, so drop it.

Everybody knows the Shell Game is a con that rips folks off for money......but it's also a reality that this forum was set up precisely to talk about exactly this topic.

The forum wasn't set up to preach about the moral character of those who play the shell game for money.......we already know all about it.....and have already declared that we don't care.
It's an educational journey into the craft of the Shell Game and the mindset of those who play it.
If you're not interested in sharing that journey, it would be appropriate for you to get off the bus.

Really, the "anti shell game" comments aren't welcome here at all. Additional personal comments directed at Chad are so unwelcome as to be little more than the flaming posts that they're intended to be.

Some folks have no reason to continue inciting in this thread (or forum), unless its their intent to preach and flame.
reese
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Tom, I'd love to hear stories about "Deacon Dan" and your experiences with him
if you ever wanted to start a thread about it.

I'm quite enjoying topandball's posts, I think they're invaluable for anyone with
a serious interest in the game. It's not like I'm gonna run off and do what he does, he's just giving an inside looksee into a world that I'd never see otherwise and I'm grateful to him for that. He's not dealing "shell game crack" and gonna turn us all into cold-hearted hustlers.

It's true, this forum says upfront what it is. Just like it's not appropriate to go into the 'Gospel Magic' section and lecture on the non-existence of G*D, it gets old quick to lecture here against the evils of sin.
silverking
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Quote:
Just like it's not appropriate to go into the 'Gospel Magic' section and lecture on the non-existence of G*D, it gets old quick to lecture here against the evils of sin.

Much more clearly put and to the point than my post above.
Jamie D. Grant
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Topandball,

I'm trying to approach this thread as if I was going to start a new job (not that I plan on it). What questions would I like answered before I started- assuming there was no training beforehand and I was just thrown into it. Here's what I've come up with (in my mind, you and I, and a few others, are walking down the street in some unknown town on our way to work):

1) What do we call the spot where we stop and set up? (i.e. "We need to move to a new [blank]. There's no money here."

2) Are we looking for a crowd or a particuliar sucker. And if it's the latter, are there any clues to help identify him?

3) Do our roles ever change during the day or am I the spotter all day?

4) Are we al paid the same? Or is there some sort of seniority or job-based scale of pay?

5) When we get to our spot, do we all split up and appoach the game at different times? Or do we all start together?

6)What's the signal for police and what's the procedure?

7)Where do we meet if we get split up? At an old warehouse (like the movies, lol) or will it be a coffeshop or something? Will we all be there? If we split up, do we need to move towns?

I'll pause here and tie my shoe while you answer those ones (if you like).

Thanks for this- this is great!

~jamie
TRICK OF THE YEAR: Industrial Revelation, BOOK OF THE YEAR: The Approach, The AIP Bottle, and my new book Scenic 52, can all be found over here: SendWonder.com
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Tom Bartlett
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Topandball,
I too, am anxious to hear more about your experiences and enjoying most of the poster comments.

Chad attacked me for stating that I agreed with topandball. I did not say anything about God or the church and I was not preaching to any one. I was just sharing some of my direct knowledge of how and why the game is played. If I struck a cord with anyone, it was not my intent and I apologize but it does not change the facts about the people that use the shell game to swindle.

I also have not posted anything negative about the shell game being used for the purpose of magic and after all this is a magic forum.

If I have posted anything that is considered flaming report it and it will be deleted.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
reese
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Tom, that's not the point.

The gist of your previous posts are more appropriate being posted in the "Right or Wrong" section.

This section is a conversation about scam artist psychology/stories/strategies.

Anyone referring to anything religious, meant it as a metaphor.

The metaphor was a reference to your perceived moralizing about "right & wrong"

That's all.

Capiche?
silverking
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Actually Tom, this sub-forum isn't a magic forum. It just happens to be on a magic web board.

Read the note from management which describes the original purpose of the forum.
Here it is to save you the trip:
Serious discussions on Three Card Monte, Fast and Loose, The Shell Game and other such scams.

This forum exists to discuss the three shell game as a hustle.........which is exactly what we're doing.

Passing judgment on those who may play the shell game as a hustle is flaming, and it's also off-topic in terms of what this forum exists for.

Saying essentially "report me" if you think it's flaming is a blatant cop out.
Try to police yourself Tom, as we all do.
Tom Bartlett
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Quote:
On 2009-06-19 16:02, reese wrote:
Tom, that's not the point.

The gist of your previous posts are more appropriate being posted in the "Right or Wrong" section.

This section is a conversation about scam artist psychology/stories/strategies.

That is exactly what I was doing. I was not pointing to the transgressions of any one in particular and I mean that. I Think the shell game, fast and lose, and the rest of the sure thing scams are far less a crime than the scams some bible salesmen, some doctors, some evangelist and some politicians use to get money and power.

Besides I’m certainly not snow white, nor would I ever claim to be, like I said I just trying to make restitution for my wrong doings not trying to point the finger at someone else.

The other point I was trying was that no mater where you come, what color your skin is or anything else 'WE" all con our selves into justifying our actions and there are people from all races and nationalities that feel like the “MAN” has done to them, so they have the right to do it to everyone else. This is part of the psychology of a con.

Most everyone know the psychology of the mark and you can’t smarten up a chump but not everyone know the way the player thinks and that is the reason I asked my questions and posted my comments, at least until Chad came down on me. It is some times very hard to convey in words ones thoughts and have the reader read them the way we intended.

I really didn’t mean to ruffle everyone’s feathers, I will not post again to this thread.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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