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gdw
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I was watching some C&B routines recently and I was reminded of something that's been bugging me with regards to most people's execution of this move.

It has to do with the timing. Too many people raise the cup at the exact moment that they are letting the ball sink into the hand. This does not work.

The illusion has to be of the ball going through the cup, not of the ball instantly vanishing from on top of your fist and just as instantly appearing under the cup. Done like this, you can actually see both balls at the same time some times.

There has to be a brief delay from when the ball sinks into the hand to when the cup is lifted.

I imagine to many this may be stating the obvious, but I just watched a bunch of performances that would beg to differ, so I just wanted to get that out there,

Thanks
Glenn
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

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Pete Biro
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You're right. Also when the cup is lifted, the reveal ball should be moving slightly. Smile
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gdw
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Yes. I actually was just going through another thread on the move, discussing it in a different context mind you, and I watched a video involving doing the move with the final load. I forget the guys name, great work over all though, and he did the move nicely, except for getting the lower "ball" moving when revealed. That would have made his performance of the move.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
konjurer
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I would agree with you. I've made that mistake before. One more little mistake I was making was to lift my hand off of the cup the second the ball dropped. The hand has to stay on the cup for the ball to drop through, right? The hand should stay in contact with the cup as it is being lifted, if only for a brief moment.
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Chris SD
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Quote:
On 2009-06-18 21:58, gdw wrote:
Yes. I actually was just going through another thread on the move, discussing it in a different context mind you, and I watched a video involving doing the move with the final load. I forget the guys name, great work over all though, and he did the move nicely, except for getting the lower "ball" moving when revealed. That would have made his performance of the move.


That would be bebel.
walid ahumada
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For some reason this move never fooled me at all, it was to me like a gag (a cool one) but I never saw magic in it.
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Bill Palmer
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Try actually dropping a ball from your closed fist and letting it land on the table. See how it moves when it hits the table. That's the way it should move when you lift the cup. If it moves too much, you overdid it.
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Keith Mitchell
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These are the kind of tips I like to see.

When lifting the cup how do you get that ball moving?

Thanks,
Keith
cupsandballsmagic
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Keith,
It's gently nudged with the back edge of the cup but then I do the CM move very differently.
Bri
gdw
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Oh, speaking of getting the ball moving, people need to do that as well when they fake a ball coming from under a cup. Especially when you are adding a ball to the ones already there.

Again, should be common knowledge, and it is always taught like this, but even Paul Gertener does this without kicking the ball rolling.

It is mostly when lifting to reveal three balls under a cup, but there was only really two, and the third is added from the hand. It is so often just set beside the cup, and it looks like exactly that. You need to kick it with the hand, at the same time kicking the balls under the cup, with the cup, as you lift teh cup.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Tilman
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I think David Williamson has come up with the best way of making the ball on the lower cup move when executing the Charlie Miller move: he tilts the whole stack of cups forward ever so slightly just before touching his fist onto the top cup. He does so by holding onto the top cup and tilting that cup forward. When the top cup is lifted from the lower cup, the lower cup rocks back into a vertical position, causing the ball on top of that cup to move.
The tilting motion can be justified as a minimal motion that is meant to bring the top of the cup closer to the hand holding the ball (but then I think the motion is so small that it is hardly ever perceived by the audience).
This, I think, is much better than trying to hit the ball with the edge of the cup. Depending on your cup design and size of the ball, you would need to move the top cup quite a bit forward in order to get in touch with the ball. The natural lifting motion would be straight up - as it is in the Williamson handling.

BTW, there is one more feature of Williamson's handling that makes it superiour to most that I've seen: the ball doesn't just sink into his fist, but goes into a full pinky palm, with the hand opening naturally as the ball travels to the pinky.
I think a hand that remains in a fist when it is removed from the cup never quite sells the move.

(This latter point refers to Williamson's handling of the Charlie Miller move proper, not to his variation for magician audiences, where the ball is allowed to drop from the hand it started in to the lower hand, holding the top cup of the stack.)
Bill Palmer
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I think it is very important not to kick that ball too far. If it rolls more than 3 or 4 inches, that is, IMHO, way too much.

It's like the revelation of the ball under the chop cup just before the loading sequence. If you kick the ball too far, the misdirection is way too noticeable, and it doesn't work as well. Even Don Alan, who basically "originated" kicking that ball forward on the chop cup, thought that people who made that ball roll too far were chicken.
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cupsandballsmagic
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Bill, I agree about not kicking it too far which was why I was careful to use the word "nudge", also I believe it is important to prepare for the move ahead by making sure the cup is pushed a little forward way ahead of time which means the action of lifting the cup (back a little) does the nudging and you don't have to move it.
Tom Fenton
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Bill,

Wasn't there another word after "chicken"?

;)
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Bill Palmer
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Yes. I cleaned it up.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Tom Fenton
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Good man!
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gdw
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Quote:
On 2009-06-19 10:27, Tilman wrote:
I think David Williamson has come up with the best way of making the ball on the lower cup move when executing the Charlie Miller move: he tilts the whole stack of cups forward ever so slightly just before touching his fist onto the top cup. He does so by holding onto the top cup and tilting that cup forward. When the top cup is lifted from the lower cup, the lower cup rocks back into a vertical position, causing the ball on top of that cup to move.
The tilting motion can be justified as a minimal motion that is meant to bring the top of the cup closer to the hand holding the ball (but then I think the motion is so small that it is hardly ever perceived by the audience).
This, I think, is much better than trying to hit the ball with the edge of the cup. Depending on your cup design and size of the ball, you would need to move the top cup quite a bit forward in order to get in touch with the ball. The natural lifting motion would be straight up - as it is in the Williamson handling.

BTW, there is one more feature of Williamson's handling that makes it superiour to most that I've seen: the ball doesn't just sink into his fist, but goes into a full pinky palm, with the hand opening naturally as the ball travels to the pinky.
I think a hand that remains in a fist when it is removed from the cup never quite sells the move.

(This latter point refers to Williamson's handling of the Charlie Miller move proper, not to his variation for magician audiences, where the ball is allowed to drop from the hand it started in to the lower hand, holding the top cup of the stack.)


Good notes on the Williamson handling for getting motion while doing it with stacked cups, however, referring to kicking the ball with the cup as it is lifted, this is specifically for when the doing the move with ONE cup, so the unnatural movement of the cup up then forward is non-existent as you do not need to clear a lower cup before kicking the ball.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Tilman
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Quote:
On 2009-06-19 20:54, gdw wrote:
Good notes on the Williamson handling for getting motion while doing it with stacked cups, however, referring to kicking the ball with the cup as it is lifted, this is specifically for when the doing the move with ONE cup, so the unnatural movement of the cup up then forward is non-existent as you do not need to clear a lower cup before kicking the ball.


If I remember correctly, using the edge of the cup to get the lower ball moving was the method described in the Dai Vernon Book of Magic for the stacked cups and the single cup handling.

I never liked the single cup handling for exactly the reason that the Williamson method of tilting the stack forward is not available when not using a stack of cups.
Even if you don't have to move upward (to clear the lower cup) before moving forward (to nudge the ball) - as in the original Miller handling for the stack - in the single cup handling you still have to move that cup forward. And I think that motion will never look good. With some performers it looks as if they try to lean on an object that rests on a slippery surface. And then that thing slips away...

I agree with mindyourmagic though that you can minimize that motion by preparing for the move (moving the cup forward ahead of time). That's a great tip. Maybe the performers I have in mind don't do that. Maybe I'm reading too many Al Schneider texts these days ;-)
Keith Mitchell
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Tilman, is there a book with Al Schneider about C&Bs? I would be very interested in this book hoping it would go with his C&Bs DVD.

I am Deaf and cannot hear what he is saying and if there is a book then hopefully it will help me out.

Thanks,
Keith
cupsandballsmagic
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Tilman, thanks, Keith, Al Schneider on coins in my opinion is essential reading for all mages including who don't even do coins, there's a lot in there that translates to all forms of magic.

Bri
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