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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Charlie Miller Move (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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kentfgunn
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Merritt Island FL
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Keith,

Al Schneider put out at least two e-books on the cups and balls I'm aware of. He named them both with a bunch of letters to make acronyms. I have them both but their names escape me.

Al has a website you can order his stuff from. It's down at the moment but you can try it intermittantly.

http://www.worldmagiccenter.com/

Hopefully Al will be back up and running soon.

KG
Keith Mitchell
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I am confused here with this topic: gdw originally talks about the Charlie Miller move using a single cup and the right timing of lifting that cup, and all that made sense to me. Then somebody mentions tilting forward a stack of cups. Why are we talking about "Stacks of Cups" and what do you mean by "Tilting Forward"? If I tilted a cup or stack of cups forward, how in the world are is the audience going to see what's under the cup if the mouth ends up facing the performer? Would it be better if I tilted backwards so that the audience can see under the cup(s)?

***Thanks Kent Gun for the information on Al Schneider***** Smile
gdw
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They are talking about doing the move with stacked cups, as is often done, and only SLIGHTLY tilting the cups forward so that when the top cup is lifted, the only cup you are actually touching, the stack will settle back causing just enough movement to wobble the ball now visible resting on the now top cup of the stack.

Hope that helps.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
magicorik
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Italia
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Quote:
On 2009-06-18 23:26, walid ahumada wrote:
For some reason this move never fooled me at all, it was to me like a gag (a cool one) but I never saw magic in it.

I have the same opinion.
Jeff Dial
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If the Charlie Miller move is a gag, then the audience must know of the existence of the lower ball before the move is executed.
"Think our brains must be too highly trained, Majikthise" HHGG
Keith Mitchell
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Quote:
On 2009-06-21 00:05, Jeff Dial wrote:
If the Charlie Miller move is a gag, then the audience must know of the existence of the lower ball before the move is executed.


I don't agree with this at all.
Tilman
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Keith,

As Kent mentions above, Al Schneider has two e-books on the cups and balls (and also companion cds that show video clips of him executing the moves and routine).

The first cups and balls book he published is titled "Schneider Classic Cups TL MPL" and was published in 2006.
(The abbreviations stand for: T(weezers Steals)L(apping) M(ultiple)P(hase)L(oads).)
The other book, which deals with his street routine for the cups and balls, was published later. I don't have it and can't provide a complete reference right now.

BTW, none of Schneider's routines (as far as I am aware) makes use of the Charlie Miller move. However, Al Schneider always goes into a lot of detail regarding the EXACT way moves in his routines are to be executed if one wants the audience to make the desired assumptions. That was all I alluded to in my aside above. Sorry for any possible confusion (BTW, even if not bearing directly on this discussion, Al Schneider's work on the cups and balls is one of the greatest resources we have on this trick).
Keith Mitchell
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Al Schneider's web site is still under construction, so at this point I am not sure how to reach him. I do like his techniques on the DVD, especially the way his hands move. Can't wait to get my hands on his books!
kentfgunn
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You can always go to this whack-job's website and get his routine. I hear he's insane, but I know he relied heavily on Schneider's teachings to construct his routine.

http://www.funshopmagic.com
Tilman
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On the gag/no-gag question: I think the Charlie Miller move can be completely deceptive when executed well and in the right context (and, I would add, when executed with a stack of cups, with the ball appearing on one of the bottom cups of the stack...).

I remember, many years ago, showing the first David Williamson video to friends (only the performance section) and right after the Charlie Miller move and the wand through cup effect they commented on how incredible it was that a ball could travel through the cup and the wand be pushed through it and still the cup appeared to be solid. In fact, they were more willing to believe that these things had really happened than to agree that Williamson was using ungimmicked cups.

Now Williamson does have a solution to this problem. He shows the bottom of the cup very clearly after the penetration phase (something that I think did not register with my friends watching a video).

When first starting to perform Williamson's routine myself, I always left out that bit.
I thought that while my spectators would be unable to understand how ball and wand had seemingly passed through the cup, that phase of the routine would never seriously convince them that my cups had holes in them. Within a couple of months, several spectators commented that they were convinced (by that part of the routine) of exactly that. Since then, I have never ommitted showing the condition of the cups very clearly after the penetration phase of the routine.

Still, it is interesting to ask yourself why you should use the Miller move when a false transfer would allow you to show the hand that touches the ball to the cup empty after the penetration. I see more people using the Miller move for penetration phases than I see people doing false transfers. I would guess that depending on features of the routine/context one should be clearly preferable to the other...
Lawrence O
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If you ask Josh the superfluous, I created a move to replace the Charlie Miller's move (favorably in my opinion, and at least it was the intent).
Josh learned it and filmed it.
If you ask him, he may send you a copy.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Pete Biro
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I've seen him do it, and it is wonderful.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
gdw
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This got me thinking of another move which I often see performed in a manner, which I personally, consider, incorrect. I say "incorrect" as it simply looks transparent when I see it performed as it often is.

It is the "inside is deeper than the outside" display with the cups and the wand.

When removing the wand from the cup, well, that line in itself sums it up, the wand should be removed from the cup, as well as the cup from the wand. Though it is not necessary to move the cup. The problem comes when performers ONLY move the cup. Then the movement of the thumb becomes apparent. The movement of the thumb is covered only when the hand and wand also move.

Classic example of larger movement covering the smaller.

Vernon almost misses it the first time he does it on the Wilson show, but I would say nails it the second time. Ammar, however, makes the, what I consider, mistake mentioned above when performing the move during his demonstration of Vernon's routine on his C&B videos. No way a slight against Ammar, it is a tiny "complaint" of a small subtlety on what can be considered a gag in a much larger performance, however, I was just watching it, and it was what got me thinking about this in particular.

Any who . . . tll the next thing I think about nit picking.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
bkp007
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Longview, Texas
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Quote:
On 2009-06-18 23:26, walid ahumada wrote:
For some reason this move never fooled me at all, it was to me like a gag (a cool one) but I never saw magic in it.


I also agree with this, and I choose not to use it very much. To me it seems to point to the fact that there is an extra ball.

However, many great magicians use this so it must not be that bad.

I guess it's just my opinion
Pete Biro
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The mose is a nice link for a routine, you just do it and keep moving.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Lawrence O
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I use the move in my metallic (copper as a tribute to Conus) balls routine. What is different about it is that I make fun of the people who think that the cups are tricked, stating "naturally the cups have about the same depth than their height" and I show it without the move, then I state, doing the move "How would a cup be deeper inside than it is outside? Ridiculous!" This script makes the effect much more puzzling than the traditional one which appeared in the very early 17 century books. The audience follows the patter (nodding in agreement at the evidence) and only realizes after it was presented and as we are already on to something else.

Now I agree with Pete Biro. Even in this form, it is just something to do and keep moving.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Jon Allen
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I had a move published in MAGIC a while ago. It was a way to visibly and audibly push the ball through the bottom of the cup with a flat palm. After pushing the ball down you can lift off the hand to show the ball has gone then lift up the cup to show it has penetrated through.

It's also described in my forthcoming book.
Paragon 3D - the most incredible Card to Clear Box you will ever own. Be fooled here: http://youtu.be/GQxRZ1OGkUo
The Silent Treatment - Digital Edition: this iconic routine just got upgraded! Watch - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=phTDUhX0m9o
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Pete Biro
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Lawrence O's new cups and metal balls routine breaks new ground. Can't believe how he came up with new ways to load!
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
plungerman
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Can't wait to see the new routine.

I'm also in agreement with the initial premise;
"For some reason this move never fooled me."
I've worked on it on and off since starting with Aldo Columbini's great routine.

but as always I thought I've just not seen it done properly. Then I watched Charlie Miller do it on tape and it really didn't look much better.

I think the tilting stack idea sounds great. Can't wait to try it. That should leave just the right amount of wobble on the ball while the cup and all is removed from the space.

P
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