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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Is it illegal to cheat at on line poker or is it just against rules of online poker websites?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
No, it isn't illegal.
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necro555 Veteran user 335 Posts |
How would you go about cheating at it?
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Collusion would be the most common (with others, or with yourself as it were).
It comes in many forms, and you have to beat the the poker software that's ever on the look out for such things, and can recognize it in many forms. In the end though, it's not how would you go about cheating, it's how do they go about cheating. |
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Expertmagician Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Easiest way is to communicate via instant messages OR you can collude with yourself if you use multiple computers.
Of course, you may have to spoof you IP address so the computers look like they are geographically separated Sometimes, if you are a good hacker, you can run spyware, to see another players computer (like NetMeeting, etc.)....NOTE: netmeeting is not secret...but, you get the idea... Just be creative...
Long Island,
New York |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
So it is not illegal to cheat at on line poker, just against the rules of online poker websites! Why is it not illegal?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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topandball Regular user New England 132 Posts |
I have a feeling it's fraud, and since it's over the internet, wire fraud. Isn't that a pretty big crime? I may be wrong; not a lawyer or anything.
-B
"Gamblin' Sam from Birmingham, I learned this game in Vietnam"
R.I.P. Haynes, the ORIGINAL "Gamblin' Sam" |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
I immediately thought wire fraud but I did this thing called google and read some articles. I think it is a question of laws not being passed concerning it. I know that here in Nevada the gambling board is ready to regulate on line gambling.
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts |
Some articles said that the reason it isn't illegal to cheat other than laws not being passed is there is no path for the victims to do anything because of the locations the casinos are at. I think there are a lot of things going on with the net that the laws have not caught up with.
Hey, if you want to cheat don't get sucked into getting software etc. sold on line. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Yes I read some stuff in cyber space that said it is not illegal but I don't know to trust what they said.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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meijin Regular user Atlanta, GA 189 Posts |
Tommy, it is really all a matter of jurisdiction for the most part.
Let's say that you and I are playing heads up on Pokerstars. I think read before that you are in the UK? Let's say, for this example, that you are. I am in Georgia in the US. So, Pokerstars is based out of Malta. Their software (servers) are running on an independent Indian reservation out of Canada. What law applies here? I am not cheating Pokerstars because even if I am cheating you, Pokerstars is getting their rake on each and every hand. Aside from them wanting to have a square game, all they can do is ban me from their site. It is not like they can charge me under any sort of Maltese law. And the Indian tribe in Canada...they are being paid by Pokerstars. So, I am not ripping them off. They get paid no matter who wins. The US federal government has no laws about online gaming except that it cannot originate from the US or be run by US corporations (that is why Pokerstars is out of Malta. They could make a case of theft "over the wire". But, there are all sorts of issues at play. You are not a citizen. Are they really going to go to the expense to try and prosecute me here? Doubtful and not even sure if they would have the jurisdiction to do so. That leaves the UK. Is your government really going to try to bring charges against me across the pond and then try to extradite me? Again, questionable that they have the jurisdiction and I highly doubt that they would. I mean, think about it...you call your local law enforcement agency or even a governmental agency. "Hello! Some chap in the US cheated me at poker online and I would like to bring charges against him." What do you think the response would be. The final kicker though is the Indian tribe in Canada that houses the software and runs the servers. I don't know if you know it, but the Indian tribes are soverign countries. Although in Canada, they are their own country within Canada. Canada cannot make them open their "books" to investigate the theft/fraud. As a matter of fact, no one can. And, they don't want the bad press. Just look at the recent mess on other sites where a former executive of the poker site had the software on his computer where he could see the cards that everyone had! It was all swept under the rug, no one has been charged and the poker site refunded the money of everyone who was ripped off. Until online poker is legislated in some form, it is like the wild west. The only exception that I can think of is a site like Party Poker in the UK. They are a publicly traded company in the UK. So, if you are in the UK it might be a problem...especially if you are ripping off other citizens of the UK.
Michael
There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots! Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Thank you kindly.
Jurisdiction: an overview One of the most fundamental questions of law is whether a given court has jurisdiction to preside over a given case. A jurisdictional question may be broken down into three components: whether there is jurisdiction over the person (in personam), whether there is jurisdiction over the subject matter, or res (in rem), and whether there is jurisdiction to render the particular judgment sought. The term jurisdiction is really synonymous with the word "power". Analysis It seems to me then that the safest legal way is to collude with oneself against players abroad. So that one is not attacking ones own citizens or conspiring with anyone. The law would then be powerless I guess. So the next thing is to look into how one sets up a boiler room. I have noted they helpfully list the various jurisdictions of online casino’s at certain websites. I personally have never played in cyberspace but I have wanted to be a spaceman since I was a kid.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Most of the Artificial Intel built into modern poker software will look for betting patterns that don't make sense, and I.P. addresses that are potentially local to each other.
The "spread" that is allowed in I.P. addresses before the software flags the player is a carefully protected piece of corporate intelligence. Any single flag that a player causes to be raised instantly raises additional flags that begin to examine the players betting pattern and location in relation to other players at the table. The net widens (in terms of I.P. addresses) whenever a player causes the software to flag unusual play and/or betting patterns. You may find the software refusing to seat two players who are in the same county, perhaps even the same suburban area of a large city. In general, mulitple I.P. addresses assigned through a cable supplier will be too close if used by the same household (or boiler room), so a common scam is to set up an internet account with your cable supplier, and another one with your telephone supplier. This usually results in dissimilar I.P. addresses, (although still possibly capable of raising flags if your betting pattern is determined to be "unusual"). For the net savy, there are other, more complex ways to alter your apparent I.P. address. In actuality, the easiest and most dastardly cheating method in common use is the use of simple "chat" software. Your crew, hopefully in different cities, each open their preferred chat software at a pre-determined time, establish contact with each other, and then open their Poker Stars software and each locate themselves at the same table. From here in it's just a matter of sharing hole cards with each other, and using that information in a couple of different ways to whipsaw the crap out of the remaining players at the table. Be warned that the A.I. software of all the major poker sites has this collusion play targeted as the most likely to occur, and if you get too greedy you'll be caught almost immediately. It gets much more complex than the above, but that's the general thrust of modern collusion and cheating at online poker. The software that allows members of the general public to see hole cards is a myth......BUT, if you happen to work for one of the online poker rooms as an employee, it's a confirmed reality. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Thanks Silver. I know someone who is an expert, he sets these online casino's up, whatever that means, but but he is never here. He set one up in the Phillipeens and now he is in Toyland setiing one up. He does not own them but that's what does for a living, he works for them or cobtracts for them or something. He used to play poker at my place and no doubt I will see him again sometime in the future. But I remember him teling me there was nothing he could do before. That was a few years ago when he started and he might know more about it all now. I am not sure what he actualy does I thought he was an accountant but I am told he sets the things up.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
BTW, Forte has about 15 solid pages of online poker cheating discussion in his book, Poker Protection.
He doesn't generalize about it, and hits all the major online cheating methods, (needless to say he knows his stuff, so this is quality information). Forte's book is probably the single most comprehensive (easily accessible) source on this topic. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
There is always a way. When the wise man from Ireland had a blanket too short to cover his feet, he cut a yard off the top and stitched it to the bottom.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Expertmagician Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Isn't it still illegal to gamble online in the USA ?
So, if someone cheats you in an online game.....sorry Charlie. and if you cheat, it does not matter because technically you can get nailed because it is against the law to gamble online. Of course, this is all difficult to enforce....But, that is not my problem. By the way, I would never gamble online....you don't stand a chance of seeing what is ahppening and there have been cases where people have used "super" passwords to control and see things that you should not see.
Long Island,
New York |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
So if I cheat you yanks you can't complain to the cops since you shouldn't be on line playing poker in the first place.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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maturpia Regular user Paradise City 142 Posts |
According to me,it depends on how you cheat.
Doing the dirty work directly on the server(wich can mean all and nothing) or on other player's computer is illegal because you are first of all committing a wire fraud. Collusion can't be illegal,at least here in Italy.You can communicate with your partner in a lots of secure way. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
This is one thing I read that prompted me to ask the question and there are many others like it.
Online Poker Cheating Costly, Unpoliceable by Lee Bains — Over the past two years, the largely unregulated business of online poker has seen two major cheating scandals, according to a joint report by '60 Minutes' and the Washington Post. Players on the poker site Absolute Poker uncovered the first of the two scandals in August of 2007, when one apparently novice player, known as "Grey Cat," began consistently winning high-stakes games. After pressing the site administrators for information, the amateur investigators finally discovered that the too-lucky player was, in fact, a former employee of the Web site who had cracked Absolute Poker's software code. Although administrators conceded this fact, and instituted $1.6 million worth of refunds to its players, they refused to make public the cheater's identity. Because online poker is illegal in the United States, and because Absolute Poker is headquartered in Costa Rica, there is no course of legal action available to the complainants. The tin-star sheriff of the online poker world, the Mohawk Indian-owned Kahnawake Gaming Commission, did nothing more than fine the company $500,000, allowing its owners to keep their license. Probably emboldened by the lawlessness exposed in this first scandal, a player or group of players on the site UltimateBet.com launched a similar cheating campaign in early 2008. Suspicious, players again launched their own investigation. This investigation lead to UltimateBet.com's admission of cheating and refunding players $6.1 million. But, as did Absolute Poker, UltimateBet.com refused to identify the cheater, or cheaters. This scandal, and the site's refusal to name the culprit, lead the Kahnawake Gaming Commission to hire Frank Catania, a former New Jersey gaming official, to investigate. This past September, Catania delivered his findings: cheaters took their prey for close to $20 million over the course of several years. The Gaming Commission fined the site $1.5 million and found former World Series of Poker champion Russ Hamilton to be the primary culprit. Despite these findings, little can be done to address the problem outside of these fines and censures. We'll just take the conservative tack and stay off the Web sites; If you don't play, you won't pay. [From: 60 Minutes via Cnet and Washington Post]
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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