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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magical equations » » I gotta admit. I just don't get magic squares (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Rocketeer
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In putting together my act it occurs to me that a magic square might fit into the early part of the show when I'm showing mental prowess that's not necessarily beyond belief.

What I don't quite understand is how audiences react to magic squares? Are they really impressed because you can do some funky math? This is a serious question. How do they go over. And are they hard to learn?

Rocky
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Greg Arce
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They go over great and, unfortunately, that's why everyone is using them now. They've become the new book test or Sneak Thief.

Whether you play it as quick math or predicting a number in a strange way, the audience loves the progressive explanations as you show all the various ways the number can be added up. It's almost a self working applause getter... which is why most people are adding it to their acts.

Greg
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Harry Lorayne
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Check out the last hour (the memory piece) of volume 4 of my "Best Ever" DVD set. I may be wrong, Greg, but so many have told me that they put the magic square (MY version) into their acts because I've been teaching it in books, back in APOCALYPSE, etc., for mamy years. Don't know whether I want to accept the credit or the BLAME. (Because I've seen it terribly loused up!) HL.
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Rocketeer
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When I explained to a friend how a magic square works (after it's assembled) she said, "Oh, sort of like sudoku," (a mathematical game of which I had no understanding until she explained it to me--I really am more of a word guy).

It seems like a magic square is like a sudoku on rocket fuel. Much richer and more difficult to construct. Has anyone tied magic squares to sudoku? Like mentioning sudoku, asking if there are any sudoku fans in the audience, or like saying you got bored with them and decided to work on a real challenge.

It seems like a natural.
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Greg Arce
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Quote:
On 2009-06-29 16:22, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Check out the last hour (the memory piece) of volume 4 of my "Best Ever" DVD set. I may be wrong, Greg, but so many have told me that they put the magic square (MY version) into their acts because I've been teaching it in books, back in APOCALYPSE, etc., for mamy years. Don't know whether I want to accept the credit or the BLAME. (Because I've seen it terribly loused up!) HL.


You surely are the fuel that started that fire. Your idea for the card square got me completely into that. I love it.

Greg
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Greg Arce
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Quote:
On 2009-06-30 11:06, Rocketeer wrote:
When I explained to a friend how a magic square works (after it's assembled) she said, "Oh, sort of like sudoku," (a mathematical game of which I had no understanding until she explained it to me--I really am more of a word guy).

It seems like a magic square is like a sudoku on rocket fuel. Much richer and more difficult to construct. Has anyone tied magic squares to sudoku? Like mentioning sudoku, asking if there are any sudoku fans in the audience, or like saying you got bored with them and decided to work on a real challenge.

It seems like a natural.


By the way, you should contact Philemon Vanderbeck because he has a great ebook called NINE that has some really cool presentations for math-based effects. In that book he describes a way of doing Sudoko in a very quick way. When I got the book I actually discovered a quicker way. If you get his book he has allowed me to teach the purchasers my quicker method.

Greg
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ddyment
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Once you know the formulas, magic squares are easy to construct. Sudoku puzzles are of various leveles of difficulty, depending on the original pattern of symbols it.

There are, however, no parallels between Sudoku and magic squares, other than the fact that they both employ square grids. Sudoku, despite its most popular appearance, has nothing to do with numbers or arithmetic: the digits 1–9 are simply used as convenient symbols. One could as easily use letters, arbitrary symbols, or whatever.

I've heard magicians try to equate Sudoku with magic squares during presentations, and they simply destroy their credibility with Sudoku fans, all of whom know that there is nothing at all mathematical about their favourite puzzle!
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Paradise
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With a combination of Dougs and Dr Bills books you have a great repeatable effect.
stanalger
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Quote:
On 2009-06-30 20:14, ddyment wrote:
Once you know the formulas, magic squares are easy to construct. Sudoku puzzles are of various leveles of difficulty, depending on the original pattern of symbols it.

There are, however, no parallels between Sudoku and magic squares, other than the fact that they both employ square grids. Sudoku, despite its most popular appearance, has nothing to do with numbers or arithmetic: the digits 1–9 are simply used as convenient symbols. One could as easily use letters, arbitrary symbols, or whatever.

I've heard magicians try to equate Sudoku with magic squares during presentations, and they simply destroy their credibility with Sudoku fans, all of whom know that there is nothing at all mathematical about their favourite puzzle!


"no parallels"???
"nothing at all mathematical"??
Doug, you're destroying your credibility with these strong statements.

I refuse to use "smilies"...but I am teasing Doug. Don't want to argue the point with him. (Been there; done that. I can see that my earlier arguing didn't persuade Doug.) Doug should not read beyond this point.

Latin squares, sudoku, magic squares: All three are related...and all three are mathematical. Read the "Product Description" for the following Oxford University Press book.
sudoku and magic squares

Stan
ddyment
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Perhaps I should have said "arithmetical" rather than "mathematical"; there is mathematics in almost everything. But I was writing colloquially rather than formally.

I stand by my main point, however: it is a broad misconception that Sudoku is an arithmetic puzzle of some kind; those who play the game know otherwise, and are bemused when people speak of it as though arithmetic were involved. A magic square, on the other hand, is decidedly arithmetic, and thus a quite different animal than Sudoku.
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Nir Dahan
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Doug,
I understand why you are saying what you are saying, BUT in this case Stan is correct.

Sudoku is VERY related to Latin squares (a sort of sudoku but with only the rows and columns) which is obviously a magic square for the rows and columns - or half magic square as some refer to.

If you want to know a bit more, try reading this great article:
http://plus.maths.org/issue38/features/aiden/

Actually the entire evolution of magic squares to Sudoku might be an interesting patter for math oriented audiences.

ND
ddyment
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First, I did not dispute the correctness of anything Stan wrote. It missed the point of my comment (a fault more mine than his, as I overstated my case to make a point; there are, of course, some parallels between Sudoku and Magic Squares, just not in ways meaningful to typical audiences). But I don't disagree with Stan.

The article cited by Nir (with which I am familiar) agrees with me, in the claim "Latin squares are the true ancestors of Sudoku." My point exactly: Sudoku puzzles descend from Latin Squares (in fact, they are a type of Latin Square), not Magic Squares.

The very definition of a Magic Square involves an arithmetic property. Sudoku has no arithmetic properties in its definition.

I'm not really interested in debating this further: I don't think it achieves anything. But I stand by my original statement:
Quote:
Sudoku, despite its most popular appearance, has nothing to do with numbers or arithmetic: the digits 1–9 are simply used as convenient symbols. One could as easily use letters, arbitrary symbols, or whatever.
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Lior
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http://qik.com/video/2024037
12 min before the end to 8 min before the end

This is a Short version done for Tim Armstrong (AOL's CEO) and
Yossi Vardi (ICQ founder).

It was done in the garagegeeks: a real Garage where many young startups
are meeting to share ideas

Lior
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Philemon Vanderbeck
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The problem with the above version (which is a popular one), is the "lopsidedness" of the key numbers.

There are versions out there that require a little more work, but create a much more even spread on the numbers contained in the square.
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Nir Dahan
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Quote:
On 2009-07-04 14:11, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
The problem with the above version (which is a popular one), is the "lopsidedness" of the key numbers.

There are versions out there that require a little more work, but create a much more even spread on the numbers contained in the square.


I think no one notices that, especially in the context that Lior presented it. If you have a more slowish style then I agree.
Lior
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Quote:
On 2009-07-04 14:11, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:
The problem with the above version (which is a popular one), is the "lopsidedness" of the key numbers.

There are versions out there that require a little more work, but create a much more even spread on the numbers contained in the square.


I do the magic Square every day,
I do it in trade shows 8 times a day.
Only magicians can think about spreading the numbers.
I can do all the versions of the magic squares but I found
out that my clients don't care about the spreading.

There where 400 geeks in this event and they didn't care.
(And they know math)
In fact , I was booked to do another event in LA (15 hours flight from Tel Aviv)
by the guy on the right, based on the only effect he saw.

Lior
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Philemon Vanderbeck
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I think our audiences are much smarter than we sometimes give them credit for.

If one is entertaining, then people are less concerned about figuring out the methodology.

The problem is that so many performers are not good entertainers, and audiences can sometimes be "polite' to even a bad presentation.

The better methods only take a little more work and create a more aesthetically-pleasing result.

The easy method smacks of laziness, and I'm sorry to say, is readily apparent to an intelligent audience (to the point where it becomes practically exposure).
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
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