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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
I have a potential booking for two days from now that seems to have an issue with the terms of my deposit.
The person wants me to re-write the terms that are on my deposit page with all sorts of legal terms, as if it is a contract. This is not a contract. It states that if for some reason I cannot make it to the event, the deposit is refunded, otherwise it is non-refundable. This is what I sent after asking for it to be cleared up: The deposit is $50 and required to hold the date and time of the show. If for some reason I cannot make it to the party, the deposit is refunded. This would any reason that would prevent me from arriving at the party. Should there, for any reason, be a cancellation on the customers end the deposit is non-refundable. I arrive about 1 half hour early to set up. The terms for the deposit and balance are on the web page I linked to in the above message. ------------------------------------------------------------ I feel like I am having to jump through hoops just to get the deposit. These are the terms I have always used and there has never been a problem. The person wants me to use words I don't understand, I don't think that any other customer would. I have the terms written so that anyone can understand them. What do I do? Do I keep rewriting the terms? I don't feel I can please this person.
-Matt
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
I am thinking of writing back that the terms are not a contract.
"The terms of the deposit are not a contract. They simply state the reason a deposit required and when it would or would not be refunded. If you do not agree with the terms, then the show is unable to be booked" What do you think?
-Matt
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lou serrano Special user Los Angeles, CA 671 Posts |
Hi Matthew,
If you are requiring a deposit with the terms you stated, then you do have a contract. If you don't like the terms that your client is putting down on that "contract", you shouldn't accept the booking. Over the years there have been several occasions when I had a client send me their own very legal contract, instead of using my "Performance Agreement". After reading the terms, I signed the contract, but I wouldn't have if the terms were not to my liking. If you don't understand the terms, you may want to let the client know that. Maybe you can reach a mutual agreement in the wording, but certainly don't sign anything that you don't understand. I hope this helps. Respectfully, Lou Serrano |
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
I don't really view the terms as a contract, and none of my past customers have. It simply states that the deposit is non refundable. No agreements, tangible or digital, ever change hands that have the date and time on it. It is simply agreed upon via email or phone call, and is not part of the terms of the deposit.
What would be the best way to word the above statement about being unable to book?
-Matt
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lou serrano Special user Los Angeles, CA 671 Posts |
I realize that this is the way you have run your business thus far, but my opinion is if you're going to ask for money, you really should have a contract. Whether it's called a contract, performance agreement, or something else. I wouldn't want to give money to any service provider without a contract regardless of the price I was paying.
At some point, you will have to provide a "contract' for your services, especially if you start dealing with corporations. Now is as good a time as any to start running your business as a real business. I have always booked my gigs using contracts. It protects me and my clients. It also gives my clients a sense of security knowing they are dealing with a professional. I have booked engagements over some of my competition by the mere fact that I did provide a contract. It made my client feel secure. Maybe some other people on here will have some tips regarding getting a deposit without a contract. I wish you the best of luck. Lou |
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Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
Matthew,
Keep in mind that a verbal agreement is still a contract, however, it leaves a lot of room for misunderstandings and can easily result in problems. Having a written agreement, even a simple letter, is simply good business as it can avoid a lot of headaches later. If the booking is only two days away, why even bother with the deposit? Just have a written agreement and get paid upon arrival. If the client has a problem with that, you may have a difficult client and could easily have problems when it's time to get paid. In that case, pass on the booking, as it will only get worse. Jim |
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
I was contacted Monday for the show, and have been getting information about the show little by little.
-Matt
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
This is what I wrote:
"The terms of the deposit state why a deposit is required and when it would or would not be refunded. The deposit is required to hold the date and time you request, so that nobody else can book the same time on that day. These are the terms that all shows I perform are booked on. If you do not agree with the terms of the deposit as stated, then the show is unable to be booked. I apologize for the inconvenience." If they write back agreeing to pay, what do I say to pass on the booking?
-Matt
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Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
I'm confused, if they agree to your terms, then why would you want to pass on the booking? If you don't want to do the gig, just tell them someone else has booked the date.
Given the short time frame, I still don't see the need for the deposit. Just get a signed agreement and payment upon arrival. If it is a private party and you are nervous about getting paid, ask for payment in cash up front. This is an opportunity for you to clarify your business terms and create your written agreement for future use. I'm curious, what terms for cancellation did the client want that you were uncomfortable with? Jim |
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
The client was re-writing my terms and telling me what to put in the terms. They told me what things to put in the terms about me not being able to show up. You know the list you find in TOS aggreements about "riots, natural disaster, acts of god?" It reminded me of that.
Basically, my terms are, if you cancel, the deposit is kept, if I cancel it is refunded. If the client all of a sudden agrees on the terms after reading what I posted above, then it was likely just for the sake of agreeing and they do not really agree. It sounds like the person would be impossible to make happy. I don't, nor has any past client have any problems with the way my terms are written, is is a short list of only three things: $50 nonrefundable unless I cannot perform, balance in cash after I set up, deposit is required to book the date and time. That is not copy and paste from my website, but basically that is it.
-Matt
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Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
Matt,
You are wise to be wary when you write "If the client all of a sudden agrees on the terms after reading what I posted above, then it was likely just for the sake of agreeing and they do not really agree. It sounds like the person would be impossible to make happy." That's why you should have them sign a written agreement with the terms clearly specified. Then they cannot claim later that the verbal agreement was different. In addition to my cancellation clause, here's another clause I include in my agreement: Act of God: CLIENT also agrees to compensate the PRESENTER in accordance with the terms herein regardless of: Act of God, fire, accident, riot, strike, or any other event that prevents performance. Very clear, no confusion. They can't come back later and claim that cancellation was beyond their control so they won't pay. If this client is a corporation, it may be that the person you are dealing with doesn't have the authority to sign such an agreement without running it by their corporate counsel, and he or she may not want to do that for any number of reasons. If it is a reputable business, then I might be willing to waive that clause, particularly if I wanted to develop a business relationship with that company. Bottom line, do you have a "meeting of the minds" with this client? If not, don't accept the booking until you do. Jim |
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
Should I redo the terms that are on the deposit page? I have always thought they were written in a very understandable way.
It is a birthday party.
-Matt
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
All if this does constitute a contact whether you call it that or not. Any binding agreement between to people is a contract. I don't understand why you have an adversity to using or calling this a contract?
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stempleton Inner circle 1443 Posts |
I see red flags all over the place from this particular client. Control freak! I'm surprised he/she hasn't asked you for a set list. Fifty dollars is not enough for you to be pulling your hair out over, Matthew...it's distracting you from your peformance preparation.
I use a "letter of agreement" stating that either party has the right to cancel within two weeks prior to arrangement. I work primarily with religious groups, however, so I have never asked for an agreement, nor have I been stiffed. I realize there are many who warn against this even in this arena, but I'll change the first time I get burned. The "agreement" also lists timeposts, i.e, the days I call prior to event, the arrival and performance times, the payment terms and when the follow up feedback form will be sent out. Remember, it's your business. You always have the final say on who you accept as a client, and someone this obsessive about legalistic terminology may not be worth it. My two cents (but just a deposit ) |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
For birthday shows, I use a confirmation letter, instead of a contract. I also don't require a deposit. But other performers handle that differently.
Aside from that, have you tried asking the customer about WHY they want to change the wording? Are they concerned about you cancelling on them? Or, do they want to know what happens if they have to cancel? Sometimes, when I've had parents ask about cancelling a birthday booking, I ask them about the circumstances they are thinking of. It opens up some communication about their fears and concerns. Then I can address them in the phone conversation. You have commented that they really aren't communicating with you. Is this all being done by email? - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
This is being done by email. The person is not expressing any concern over cancellation, just that I will show up.
I always confirm the show, either by phone or email.
-Matt
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Quote:
Matthew: The deposit is $50 and required to hold the date and time of the show. If for some reason I cannot make it to the party, the deposit is refunded. This would any reason that would prevent me from arriving at the party. I can see their concern that you will cancel. The wording is very open ended, about them getting their refund if you have to cancel. To some reading it, it could make it sound like you cancel on a fairly regular basis, or that you might cancel if a better paying gig comes along. Their concern isn't about the deposit. It's about your reliability. Why not word it like, "In extreme or unusual circumstances, if I have to cancel, your deposit will be fully refunded. However, I will make my best effort to be at the show, or give you adequate notice, or find a replacement performer. It is not a normal occurrance for me to cancel a show." Note - I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Matthew W Inner circle New York 2456 Posts |
I have never missed a show before. I will add the quote you provided to my website.
-Matt
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RobertSmith Veteran user 330 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-07-03 12:19, Donald Dunphy wrote: That's exactly what I saw. I read that and thought, "Why would he not show up?" I'm thinking your own wording left it open to interpretation that you may no show. I don't think you need that whole, 'in the event I can't make it' bit. You HAVE TO make it. This is a contract. You're as obligated to them as they are to you. Don't use that phrase in future agreements. Robert |
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Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
Matthew,
Great advice from everyone. You should really speak to the client by telephone to make sure you see eye to eye. You can't really address the client's concerns via email because there is too much left out of emails. Give him or her a call and address their concerns. Jim |
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