Dreadnought,

Great doctors, engineers and attorneys pay great tuition fees and go to great schools for many years to learn their trade. They also spend years studying their craft. I doubt they're trying to learn these skills on a website.

To me, the same should be said of magic.

Dreadnought,

When I began learning magic, I was 12 years old and lived in the thriving metropolis of LaFollette, TN! I'm being sarcastic about the metropolis part. At that time, LaFollette was a city with a population of less than 7,000 people. It was more than one hour away from Knoxville, which is the third largest city in the state. Of course, I wasn't of driving age so I wasn't able to get there all the time.

I bought books and magic effects by mail order. I read everything I could get my hands on. There wasn't a magic book at my local library that I had not checcked out. Every time I saw a book store, I went in and went straight to the games and puzzles section (that's where the magic books are.)

When I turned 14, I found out that there was a chapter of the International Brotherhood of Magicians in Knoxville and I got my mother to drive me to meetings once a month. I found out there were conventions and started attending them.

This was long before there was an Internet. Today, there is so much information available to someone interested in magic that there's little excuse for not learning the basics and moving forward. Your complaint that people point to links on a subject rather than explaining it points out part of the issue. You do have to do your own research. It isn't handed to you on a silver platter! When someone posts a link and points out that it has been discussed before, he's doing you a favor! He did the research for you.

Before I post a question, I use the search engine on The Magic Café. (Granted, it's a frustrating search engine because you can only do one search and then have to wait a while before it lets you do another. Now, that really bugs me but I digress!) I do a search on Google. Once I have exhausted my methods of researching, I will then post a question if I didn't find the answer.

If you are not passionate enough about magic to do as much research as needed on your own, are you really that serious about magic? I always found people to be really open to me if they saw I had been putting the effort out on my own.

Michael

Amen!

How hard is it to click a link, and read a different thread?

Invest some time and effort into your craft, if you take it seriously.

- Donald

At first, I would say, you missed my point, but, you kind of made my point. I said there will be those that say, 'If ya wanna learn card magic read Erdnase." And that's the response given here and the mind set, read and research and any help given to someone is something given on a "silver platter" which they don't deserve.

It's truly noble that a mother would drive her son miles to learn his craft, but not all parents are able to do this, doesn't mean they are bad parents, and that is not the point.

The point of my first post was, we, as an industry, are like Dr. Victor Frankenstien. We create the monster and when we have to feed and clothe it and look at it, we just try to walk away from it wanting nothing to do with it.

I think it is time that we open the windows and allow the fresh air in; re-think the issue. Rather than complain, we need to do something about it. First and foremost educate people properly, not just tell them research and the best of luck to you. Because we, as an industry, become no better than the magician I met thirty five years ago who said, "I don't train my future competion."

If someone has a legitimate question about a one handed pop over or a two hand shift then answer the person. I do not see the problem with giving an answer here to someone who comes here seeking an answer. Not just "read a book" or "That question has been asked and answered." And that is not to be construed as me saying we should just give away all of our secrets.

Scott,

You're not getting it. I gladly help anyone who has done his "due diligence" but I'm not going to go out and simply explain whatever anyone wants to know until I know that the person is serious about the craft. I provide lots of guidance and assistance here but how hard is it do a search?

If someone says to me, "I want to learn card magic," I'm going to say you need to buy the Royal Road to Card Magic because it is an excellent primer on cards. If he (or she) reads it and wants more advanced material, I'll make further suggestions. If he (or she) has a problem understanding how to do something they read about, I'll assist them.

You said, "We create the monster and when we have to feed and clothe it and look at it, we just try to walk away from it wanting nothing to do with it." So, what do you call the thousands of books and thousands of DVDs on every imaginable part of magic? Are they not there for education?

By the way, there is a big difference between answering a question about a two-hand shift and "teaching him to be a magician." I will gladly assist a person who needs help with what they are working on but I'm not here to train magicians. That's requesting way more than guidance.

Michael

Part of the problem is the people who don't want to read another thread. The information is here and now. You don't have to buy a book. If you read the other thread, or do a search, but don't have a certain nuance of your question answered, I can see the point of re-asking for help. Clarify your question. Otherwise, the help has already been given (link was given to where answers were), and the person doesn't want to take it.

Part of the point of providing links is for the sake of efficiency. The forum doesn't need 2000 threads talking about the same question and answer over and over again, asked by 2000 different magicians. In most cases, when people who have been here for a while see the same topic come up again, they are annoyed / bored. They are providing help by giving a link. This has nothing to do with whether we are magicians or not.

I suspect that many people want to have the feeling of importance (recognition), and so it is in their nature to help / give advice. Whether they take the time to write out a post, or take the time to research a link, they are acting out of motivation to show kindness to that person. Granted, there are a few (not a majority) who could be a little kinder in the way they offer their help. But manners are the responsibility of people who are asking for help, as well as people who are giving help.

- Donald

I can only speak from my experience...

I did a little bit of magic for years and then got seriously interested in it in the 80's. Guess what? Star, Idaho isn't exactly Chicago, LA, NYC, Vegas, or London. It's pretty much Hog Holler...

So I decided to save my money and I went to a few conventions. I looked for performers who were likeable, fun, and friendly. I approached them, asked questions, and LISTENED. I did not tell them a lot of "me, me, I, I" stuff. I shut my trap and let them talk. I did not expect them to GIVE me anything, except maybe some anecdotes and general advice on how to proceed, a couple of books to buy, etc.

I met Aldo Colombini and knew that this was the kind of magician I enjoyed watching. I got to know him. I asked him to come lecture in Idaho. I paid for his hotel and had a friend donate his office's conference room for the lecture. I met him at the airport, bought him lunch, took him to the lecture, then bought him dinner and took him back to his hotel. Next morning, I picked him up and took him to the airport. A few weeks later, I called him and asked him about the possibility of coming down to LA (where he lived at the time) and getting some lessons from him. We set it up. I found a place to stay down there and went to his house at the appointed times. I PAID him in ADVANCE for his time. I watched and LISTENED. Each night, I spent hours working on what he'd shown me that day. We became (and still are) good friends.

Same thing with Ray Grismer as Aldo.

Though I never went to his home for lessons, I established a similar relationship with Paul Green. I went out of my way to book a lecture tour for Dan Fleshman and later David Roth. I drove them from city to city to the lectures, helped them with their sales tables, kept people from bugging them while they were preparing. I LISTENED to them--let them do most of the talking. Made it clear that I EXPECTED nothing, but was willing to learn anything they cared to share.

Guess what? I'm now friends with all of those guys. On a much smaller scale, I built budding friendships with Larry Jennings and Gary Ouellet, may they both R.I.P.

My point is, it's easy to sit around and make excuses. I made SACRIFICES to get my magic education. It cost me a lot of TIME, MONEY, and EFFORT. I didn't expect anyone to GIVE me something for nothing. All of them did, but it was their choice, because they liked me, because I approached them politely and humbly, because I LISTENED instead of trying to impress them. It was something I wanted to learn about, and I did what I had to do to get to these guys, introduce myself, and win them over. I really couldn't afford the expenditure of time and money in those days, but when you really want something, you're willing to make sacrifices to get it.

The proliferation of magic in the computer age makes it more accessible than ever in history. With Skype, IM, email, and forums like this one, the tyro has more access to more "name" magicians than ever. And we have more people griping more often about how hard it is to get help and advice to progress than ever! No offense, but if that's you, you don't know what "hard" is!

Bottom line: When things become cheap and easily attainable, they lose their value. Familiarity breeds contempt. Prosperity breeds laziness. And we have a generation of prosperous beginners who can easily become familiar with more big-names than ever. Do the math...

Again, the point is missed. I'll try it again.

In the original post, we are intorduced to three people, who with a handful of props and extremely minimal training, feel they can now start cashing in. In subsequent posts there are stories of people who learned magic in a not so traditional method or they have not gone through the traditional rites of passage. Like the rock band Boston...they didn't pay their dues so why should they cash in?

There are those who have bought the books, watched the DVDs and pretty much perform the tricks badly and are out and about making money, trying to produce magic videos or write books on magic. Then up comes a question and suggestion, who considers when a person becomes a professional? Is it making money? Some of the guys here spoken about have done that, like the guy performing in the restaurants for short stays. So, according to that standard, even though he sucks, he is a professional. Or is it the person, as someone said in another thread similar to this one, who sits on death row and keeps his sanity by practicing sleight of hand. If he can perform it perfectly and better than anyone else before him but never performs live and makes money from the performance is he a professional? After all, he has acheived a high level of mastery.

Who judges as to when a person has the "chops" to begin a career? There is no magical equivalent of the bar exam or medical board exam. There is no state licensing board, at least in Georgia, that I know of.

In music, a person can become a self trained musician and make a living. Doesn't mean he knows the theory behind the craft. He just knows that C-F-G and the occasional Am, Dm and Em when thrown into that progression sounds cool. If he is a guitar player he probably reads tablature like a champ. Yet, he has no theory or composition classes to fall back on nor can he read music even at an elementary level? Is he a professional? If he reads some of the books on music theory can he understand it or will a simple inversion throw him into a tail spin.

For the musician who wants to really learn the craft there are a host of universities and colleges and specialized schools like Julliard and Berklee, Notre Dame, SMU, Oberlin, LSU and De Pauw that specialize in music and will cater to their needs, yet, they have to audition to get in, after all, nobody walks into Eastman and expects to just start jamming.

Point, the music industry has a system of checks and balances and criteria to which people who call themselves "professional musicians" can be judged by their peers, even if the only method employed is, "Dude this guy rocks." Even on the most basic level, a person can go to a local music store and pay for lessons.

In magic, an individual simply reads a book and when said individual feels he or she is ready, they can hire themselves out as a professional magician, sloppy sleights et al, no checks, no balances, just each person's opinion to determine if said magician is a professional.

So, what do you propose should be done about it? I'm completely confused at what you're saying and what you're expectations are. You seem to be all over the place on this. (I'm not trying to be confrontational. I just trying to figure out what it is you think needs to be done.)

I'm saying... we sit and complain but we do nothing to correct the matter. If the person wants to learn black art he is told read Don Drake. If he wants to learn card magic read Erdnase, Hugard or Fisher. Then when that is accomplished, there is no final test, no licensing board, no schools no nothing to check off and see if the person has reached a level of competency, he or she just goes out and starts making money.

Then, we complain... this guy sucks, he doesn't know anything or anyone, he's selling gimmicks that suck...etc.

It comes down to proper education. So, I'm asking, who determines the educational criteria and standards?

The point is not missed. At least not my point. You remarked that there are people who live where there are few magicians, making it hard if not impossible to get a mentor. I simply replied that I was in that same position and made it happen.

Who decides who is a professional? Who cares? I am not and do not claim to be the magic police or magic accrediting agency.

All I'm trying to do is to get magicians to raise the bar, evaluate themselves a bit more honestly and strictly, and try to get them to respect the art and the audiences more. To leave an audience with a BETTER impression of magic rather than a WORSE one. There are almost no endeavors on earth where someone would consider himself proficient enough to call himself a professional after only a few weeks. I just think magic should be lumped in with almost every other endeavor in that regard.

I could go buy some rubbing alcohol, forceps, a scalpel, rubber gloves, a tongue depressor and a stethoscope tomorrow. But I wouldn't last long if I claimed to be a doctor ready to see patients just because I owned some doctor's tools, even if I had a pretty good idea of how to use them. In fact, people would be horrified at the thought of me doing so.

One could buy a basketball, a hoop and some sneakers tomorrow. But it is the rare person, indeed, who could make money playing basketball after only a few weeks of practice!

I don't care about semantics or accreditation when it comes to magic. I'd just like to see a bit more respect for the art and craft of magic from the majority of folks who claim to be magicians!

You said who cares who decides when a person is a professionl? Apparently you care, and very much so which is noble, because you raise the issue.

You say you don't care about semantics or accreditation when it comes to magic but you want the magicians held to a higher level. So, again, yes, you do care. And so does everyone else here in this thread bashing out this discourse. If you want higher standards then a bar has to be set. Because, self policing hardly, if ever works.

Maybe what you mean and what you should say is, I do care and somebody needs to do something but I do not have the time to commit to it nor do I have any ideas at the moment. And there is nothing the matter with saying that.

Wrong.

What I care about is not whether someone uses the term professional or not. What I care about is whether some guy who bought a few tricks misrepresents his abilities and experience and foists himself upon spectators, charging money when he should be paying someone to teach him. I do not care about accreditation. There's no way to do it. And even if there was, the general public would not care or know the difference.

Self-policing IS, in fact, the ONLY answer. I do my best to make sure that my shows are good and that I treat my audiences with respect. I do my best to teach others to do so. I do not associate with or assist those who are unwilling to spend time on putting together a quality act or those who treat audiences like morons.

I don't care about semantics. You can call yourself a magican or a sleight of hand artist, or an illusionist, or a prestidigitaor, or an astonisher.... doesn't matter a lick to me.

And frankly, your presumptuous statement at the end of your post, as well as the condescending manner in the rest of it, is more than a little offensive.

Maybe I'm reading something into all of your posts, but you seem to have a beef with people who don't want to help you in the way you want to be helped. Part of it was revealed in this sentence, and throughout your posts.

I think that's it's important to mention this thought.

If someone doesn't want to train you, that's fine. That's their choice to make. Thank them for their time, and move on. Forgive them if they said it in a harsh way.

It's like selling a show. If you dwell on the prospects who say no, you have the wrong perspective. When you get wrapped up in blame and hurt and bitterness, it diminishes your potential. Maybe you aren't at that extreme yet, but the potential is there.

Focus on those who DO want to work with you. When you get a no, politely say "thank you", and think "NEXT!"

That incident is distant history.

- Donald

Forgiveness is the fuel in my tank, I preach it non-stop. I have no beef with anybody. I'm saying that instead of complaining about the lack of expertise a person has there should be some guidelines established to determine when a person is ready.

Scott,

I am sorry I offended you. That was not my intention, in fact I have been quite cordial. Neither was I ever condescending nor presumptuous. I made an observation is all.

I stand by that observation.

As for semantics, no one is discussing whether a person calls himself a magician, an illusionist or even a charlatan. The word in question is professional as you were the first to use it.


"My biggest pet peeve is people who are rank beginners billing themselves as "professional magical entertainers." They're not professional, magical or entertaining.

There are far too many guys who are charging for shows and advertising that they give lessons in magic, when they should be TAKING lessons!"



My question is what is a professional? What are the standards? Who establishes(d) the standards? What is the criteria for meeting these standards? Who determines if the person in question has met these standards? And finally, how do we ensure that the person can meet these standards?

Self policing, you, others and I can do it, but that does not mean everyone can do it. Even if the majority does it, the minority cannot and that gives way to the 1% rule. "The 1% ruins it for the other 99." History shows time and again that self policing, especially in an industry, never works.

If you want to see condescending then I can go back through the pasts posts in this thread and pull out the condescending remarks from yourself and others.

Scott,

Would you please outline your plan to rid us of this circumstance? It's not good enough to complain. You have to put forth some ideas on how to fix it. So far, I keep hearing somebody's got to do something. I don't see you volunteering.

I make the vast majority of my income as professional magician. It was and is my goal to be the best I can be. I'll gladly assist others who are putting forth a good effort but I'm not out to set the standards or create a system of standards.

Michael

Michael,

I've already listed what I think needs to be done.

To expand a bit more. There should be a major meeting of the minds to determine the credentials.

I remember when the State of Louisiana did not license their private investigators, almost every state requires licensing now with the exception of Mississippi. Too many investigators were complaining about people with no experience or real sketchy experience as well as no formal training, just reading books or attending mail order courses promising to give them the tools to make them investigators. Their complaint was these people were hiring themselves out as investigators, performing really bad work and wreaking havoc on the industry and, naturally, giving it a bad name.

After years of complaining, a committee was formed. The big names in the state along with other competent investigators who were interested in seeing some chage, I was one of those interested, met in a series of meetings and drafted the criteria to become a licensed investigator in the State of Louisiana.

That is what has to happen. Those that are interested, and those that have the power, should get together and establish the guidelines. You said you will help people who put forth a good effort. I guarantee your initial definition of a good effort is slightly different than someone elses and the criteria you use to judge said effort is going to be different, easier compared to some and harder compared to others.

There is no governing body to establish the bare minimum. Until that happens, we can complain all we want and the complaining does nothing. An actual governing body can have the backing of a government entity or at least pull enough stroke to stop the abuse. The IBM really does not do anything, anyone can basically get in, all you need is two people to vouch for you and send in the money.

"That is what has to happen. Those that are interested, and those
that have the power, should get together and establish the guidelines."

Joseph Conrad expressed it best in "Heart of Darkness"...

The horror! The horror!

The LAST thing I want is any sort of "Board" of nanny-statists
emerge to classify entertainer a) as qualified and
entertainer b) as unqualified.

Yeah, crappy entertainers show up, charge too much, and foul
the water for the rest of us. That's life in the food chain.
Stop worrying about them. With any luck, they'll either disappear
from the circuit, improve with age, or muddle along as an ongoing
nuisance.

They matter not.

IMO, there will always be business for anyone who takes the craft
seriously, offers a great service, and solves people's problems
with integrity, passion, and love.

--Jack

Well said Jack.

Magic is a lot like baseball. It's a big hobby for many.
The little leaguers have just as much right to play as
any of the others. I say let the fans decide which league
the player should to be in.

Major leaguers don't complain about others playing the game.
They just play the game they love and encourage others
to love it too. After all, the more loving the game,
the more ticket sales there are for all.

In business, the best way to beat the competition is
to set yourself apart from the others. Then you have
no competition. Play a different game, play in a
different league.

Tom