Another classically referenced force. After the discussion on the PATEO force, what's your opinion on this kind of force? Is it see-through? any ways of strengthening it?

I've used it several times on friends and family and no one was the wiser. I think that it looks more deceptive with a lot objects to choose from. Let's see what others have on this subject.

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you referring to some force called "Counting Ambiguity"? I must confess I'm not familiar with that name. Does it have another name? Where can I find it? Please describe how it appears to the spectator.

(If the question concerns PATEO, then this has already been discussed in an older thread)

General description : Several items (objects/symbols/numbers) are arranged in some form. A spectator names a number between one and the number of items. The performer countes items to that number. The item at that number is the forced item.

Not familiar with the Pateo force. But your description (as far as it goes) sounds too familiar.

Are you talking about the "magician's choice" force? I dont want to give it all away here, but it is like your description except that has another builtin method rather than just counting by number to arrive at the force item. Typically done with 5-6 items? And the magician may do it right handed or left handed - if you get my drift..

BroDavid

There's also the "10-11" force...

What you've described is equivoque or magician's choice and that's not PATEO... PATEO which I believe stands for: Pick At Two, Eliminate One. I don't want to reveal the exact process, but it deals with how many objects are being used and you can always force one of the objects. Send me a personal note and I will explain it. Or check Art of Astonishment under the Gregory Wilson section called 411.

What you've described is equivoque or magician's choice... PATEO which I believe stands for: Pick At Two, Eliminate One. I don't want to reveal the exact process, but it deals with how many objects are being used and you can always force one of the objects. Send me a personal note and I will explain it. Or check Art of Astonishment under the Gregory Wilson section called 411.

Friends,

Can I assume that Counting Ambiguity refers to the difference between 1,2,3 and one, two ,three...?

Hal

Right. I think How_Soon is refering to those forces where you force a selection by counting in one direction or maybe in the other direction, or spelling the number and then moving to that selection, or by having numbers on the back of the selection, etc..

-A

First, let me apologize... I am not double posting. There seems to be some problem that keeps making some of my replies duplicate themselves. Anyway, the managers are looking into it. We have now covered three forces: the first one seemed to be the magician's choice, and the second one dealt with the idea that you can either count the number or spell to it... neither one of those are the PATEO force.
If you are still trying to figure out what the PATEO force is then send me a personal message and I will describe it in detail.

Hello all,
I was not talking again about the PATEO force but about a different force (note the use of the word "after" in my original post).
However, I was trying to be discreet.
Hal Weaver and asmayly had it right. You may also add to their suggestions the 4X4 force.
I hope you now all understand my original questions. How about some views?

I wouldn't say that the 'Counting Ambiguity' force was particularly strong. It most certainly could only be used once each performance without arousing suspicion.I don't think it can stand alone as a force for a mentalism routine. Having to 'spell' in my opinion significantly weakens any potential effect.
However,if used in the context of a 'greater' effect (e.g. Hot Rod, where you force a colour and THEN the magic happens) then the force is more of a 'throw away' and should not attract attention.
With regards to strengthening the force,I think the weakness of spelling should be addressed.
An idea: If your spectator chooses '2'.
Say, "T - W - O is the magic spell"
It creates a moment of ambiguity and offers a motive.
Thanks for getting me thinking!
Giles