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gaddy
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DNA evidence can be fabricated. Story here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/scienc......&emc=rss

Also, the idea of the “genetic paparazzi” is discussed.

Brave new world, or new world order?
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
daffydoug
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Eternal Order
Look mom! I've got
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Sucks.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
critter
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The article is slanted towards the sensationalistic part. They kind of gloss over that there is, in fact, a way to tell the difference between the fake stuff and the real stuff.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
gaddy
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Quote:
On 2009-08-18 20:32, critter wrote:
The article is slanted towards the sensationalistic part. They kind of gloss over that there is, in fact, a way to tell the difference between the fake stuff and the real stuff.


They used to say that about artificial diamonds too....
Give it a few years.
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
critter
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The problem is that anything can be faked. Fingerprints can be planted. Memory is always skewed. Even videotapes can be faked. And the technology for everything is constantly evolving. Look at what fractal geometry did to the antenna.
So we can't trust anything, but we also can't let rapists and murderers walk the streets. So we have to decide what we can't not trust most the least, because if you don't have standards in criminal justice then you get the West Memphis Three.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Doug Higley
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"If the glove don't fit"...cap him anyway.
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
stoneunhinged
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I was also thinking about OJ. I believed at the time--still do, in fact--that the prosecutors made a HUGE mistake relying on the DNA evidence. If they had stuck to blood types and Bruno Maglia and all the circumstantial evidence, then Barry Scheck couldn't have pulled off his MASTERPIECE of misdirection. Make no mistake, Barry Scheck destroyed the prosecution. Not the "glove don't fit" and not the sweet rhythms of Johnnie Cochran's arguments. Schrek did it.

But he wasn't to blame for the fiasco. He was just doing his job. It was the prosecution and their wet dream of perfectly presented perfect science. Science ain't perfect, and they didn't present it perfectly. So a murder walked.

I hope those days are over. Let's bring back rubber hoses and put away some REAL criminals.
Dannydoyle
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Guys, hate to tell you this but the WORST type of testimony, evidence, is eyewitness testimony.

Any cop will tell you that the fewer witnesses you have the better off you are. Less of a chance of them mucking things up and forgetting.

We can only do the best we can do to make sure things don't run amuck in society.

The thing is that words should mean things. When you have people who make a living skewing meanings and bluring lines it becomes tough to run a society. Mind you if I were accused of a crime (guilty or innocent mind you) I would want to put to work the best word skewer in the world! I believe we all would right?

At times the systems seems to make little sense, but overall it works.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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That's what I was alluding to when I said 'memory is always skewed.' Good magicians know that already.
As for OJ, he's probably gonna' die in jail. He can't help himself.
The WM3 are a more immediate concern to me.
http://wm3.vox.com/
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
kcg5
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who wants four fried chickens and a coke
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You think they should go free (the wmv?)
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
critter
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I do. Their situation is one of the few things that really ****** me off.
I wrote to their state governor requesting a pardon for them about two years ago.
Sounds like the appeal is going well though.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Having said that, the overwhelming majority of people convicted of crimes in the USA have done what they're believed to have done (though legal "guilt" is a term of art and goes beyond that, encompassing one of various mental states e.g. negligently, recklessly, knowingly, etc.). The system is designed so that a slew of guilty defendants go free for every innocent one who is convicted, and it achieves that aim.

I can see being P.O.'d about the WM3, who may very well be innocent (though it's not entirely clear to me. We spent a lot of time in my evidence class discussing them).

One of the many things that asterisk ME off is when people indisputably guilty of violent crimes are returned to society and rape/kill/rob innocent people yet again, whether it be due to light sentencing, parole board actions, or the trial process.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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So what you're saying is that murderers are the only people in the US who can still find work?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2009-08-19 15:12, critter wrote:
So what you're saying is that murderers are the only people in the US who can still find work?


Well, they're kinda like comics on open mic night. I mean, if they're willing to do it for FREE...
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
kcg5
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Critter, did you see the movies? they seemed pretty guilty to me
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
Tom Bartlett
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Quote:
On 2009-08-19 15:08, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Having said that, the overwhelming majority of people convicted of crimes in the USA have done what they're believed to have done (though legal "guilt" is a term of art and goes beyond that, encompassing one of various mental states e.g. negligently, recklessly, knowingly, etc.). The system is designed so that a slew of guilty defendants go free for every innocent one who is convicted, and it achieves that aim.

I can see being P.O.'d about the WM3, who may very well be innocent (though it's not entirely clear to me. We spent a lot of time in my evidence class discussing them).

"""One of the many things that asterisk ME off is when people indisputably guilty of violent crimes are returned to society and rape/kill/rob innocent people yet again, whether it be due to light sentencing, parole board actions, or the trial process."""
You can say that again and add to it the fact that their prior arrest and convictions can not be brought up in court for consideration by the jury.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2009-08-19 15:08, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Having said that, the overwhelming majority of people convicted of crimes in the USA have done what they're believed to have done.



Is this opinion or fact? If fact, what sources?


Jack
critter
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Quote:
On 2009-08-19 15:31, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-08-19 15:12, critter wrote:
So what you're saying is that murderers are the only people in the US who can still find work?


Well, they're kinda like comics on open mic night. I mean, if they're willing to do it for FREE...


Do you know that Ron White goes to open mic night almost every night? And he KILLS. It's called practice. That's why he's a millionaire.


Quote:
Critter, did you see the movies? they seemed pretty guilty to me


I never saw the movies but I spent a lot of time reading the witness testimonials (including the retractions) and reviewing the material evidence. I am aware of the part that the movies played in establishing the 'other' suspect though.

That aside, it doesn't really matter how it seems at all. The only thing that should matter is the evidence, and the preponderance of it points away from those kids (though they aren't really kids anymore.)

I have to study for a final right now but I will elaborate on this later in the week.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2009-08-19 16:14, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-08-19 15:08, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Having said that, the overwhelming majority of people convicted of crimes in the USA have done what they're believed to have done.



Is this opinion or fact? If fact, what sources?


Jack


My primary source would be my Advanced Criminal Law professor, who is a former defense attorney, Harvard Law grad, media consultant for stories involving criminal cases, and nationally recognized scholar at a top law school.

Specifically, his estimate was that about 3% of criminal defendants didn't do what they'd been accused of doing, though perhaps 30% were legally "not guilty" as a result of over-charging and the required mental states for criminal guilt.

If you know any criminal defense attorneys you trust who would say that most (or even a substantial minority) of the people they represent didn't do what they were believed to have done, I'd be interested to hear about it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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So what you're saying is that there are sixty thousand innocent people in prison?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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