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magic4545 Inner circle Jimmy Fingers 1159 Posts |
Great post, especially your insight into the penetration/vanish boxes, I never really saw it that way. But, all the same, I really trust your judgement when it was that well articulated.
I was simply disappointed with the bump box that was not even as good as the Pendragons' version on the video from what looks like about 20 years ago, the one where they're performing to Genesis' "The Brazilian" song. The hand shadow moves really sold that one. Great, very subtle, similar to the lighting in the Great Escape effect by Walter Blaney. The Pendragons obviously put some time into the improvements on that effect. I didn't see that with the AGT presentation. That being said, I would still have been disappointed with the bump box routine if it had been a clone of the Pendragons' version. I still expect SOME improvement on the effect. Something different perhaps, but at least as much of an advance on the routine that the Pendragons offered, but better than the ones that preceded the Pendragons version. If you're going to go on national television, your version of the effect should be the best that there has ever been if you're going to do previously televised versions. "If", please understand that I don't feel that magicians should bother to go onstage with an effect if it hasn't been improved enough to call their own. Drew's bump box was not an improvement on the Pendragon's version, in any way, and there was not enough of an improvement on method or premise to qualify for being on tv. IMHO. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a magic czar who could consult on those shows, and just tell them when something's been done so many times on t.v., and when a performer is actually doing something that is groundbreaking and new. These judges don't know what we know about what Criss Angel does to contrive the outcomes of effects on T.V. The producers wouldn't have to adhere to airing every original effect that comes down the tube... but if there are two effects that are getting similar consideration for the show, the czar could tell them whether one piece was new and groundbreaking, and the other has been done before, even better in some aspect. I would rather see some of Dan Summers' cool stuff, and there are probably other cool effects that many of us haven't seen before. Loughran's Head Rush or Mayne's Bisection, or something that uses out of the box thinking, performed by the inventor. Let us put the face of the inventor together with his work. See the tracks of the creativity through his impassioned, personal presentation of his own work. Imagine seeing Jack Gwynne doing his own pieces way back when. Imagine seeing Harbin doing the Zig Zag on this show. With a million magicians in the world, there's got to be SOMEBODY somewhere doing SOMETHING new!!! A showcase like this can bring these things out if a credible judge and information are available. I know of several people who I would appoint as magic czars for television. Guys with the integrity to blow the whistle on abuses, and keep out the megalomaniacs who only want to abuse the medium to pad their own egos and ratings. But, if you just want a popularity contest, you've got it. AGT. |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
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On 2009-08-21 11:18, Bairefoot wrote: I hope you're kidding, right? Unless you're a producer on this show, it's pretty difficult to know what it takes, considering the show is set up. I tell you this as someone who WORKED on the show.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Bairefoot Inner circle 1097 Posts |
Andrew are you tying to help me or just ask a question? I'm glad that you WORKED on the show. I just beleive that I know what it takes to win. Does that mean that I would win? Of course not. I lost or come in 2nd in many magic competions and I have won plenty of competitions. Look at the website if you want http://www.magicidol.com Becuase we all no the best doesn't always win you just need to hang around long enough to have that chance. On any given night or day anyone can win. So Andrew that in mind I hope you give me a call to try and sell you the idea on how to win AGT since you WORKED on the show your almost there I quess. I hope you understand that what can win one night might not win on another night. The judges and you, me are only human. That only one tenth of the answer on how to win.
Bairefoot "Putting the South Back on The Map" |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2009-08-23 13:25, Andrewzuber wrote: "Set Up" is a suitably vague term for what goes on. It is manipulated, staged and some scenes manufactured... but that doesn't mean that the entire outcome is completely predetermined as you're implying. Yes, they position certain acts to get further ahead... yes, they have favorites... yes, they stage things and routine acts to fail when they get to be too much trouble... we know all of that. What they don't do is predetermine a "winner". They can do all they can to "help" the voting viewers decide, but that's it.
Ray Pierce
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Bairefoot Inner circle 1097 Posts |
Ray that's a great way to put! I think some people here miss some of the finer points of the competition.
Bairefoot |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I think I'm done debating this topic...I was on the studio side of the show, I know exactly what went on behind the scenes because I worked with the executives running the show, and I use the terms "scripted" and "set up" because they are appropriate to the experience that I witnessed first-hand. I wasn't a P.A. or working craft services - I assisted the three head executives for NBC's Alternative Programming department, and when information regarding the show came in, it landed on my desk before it went anywhere else. Having full access to those materials, meeting Simon, Sharon and Piers on multiple occasions, and being a party to so many of the conversations that took place during the development and production of America's Got Talent, I am confident that I know how the show operates from the studio's standpoint, and that's where all of these conversations took place before they ever hired a host, judges, obtained venues, picked cities, made travel arrangements, or any other the other countless things that took place to make this all happen. Again - I'm not going to refer to it as a competition. It's made to look that way, but that is not the case.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Andrew... I understand that you were an Exec. Asst... I know you were on the show. I'm not trying to debate that... I'm just trying clarify for magicians that might not work in the same capacity you did. I'm not sure that everyone clearly understands the meanings that you set forth. Most don't know what a Gaffer or Best Boy is on a film set either.
I am simply trying to remind people (and you can back this up or deny it) that even though there is a lot of manipulation... the outcome of the show is not 100% predetermined. In other words (to be extra clear) there isn't a clearly defined "winner" set up before the taping starts. I understand and appreciate that you made travel arrangements and you got to see all the memos... I know you had a name badge and got to park on the lot... we get it. I just think the term "set-up" might imply something more than you mean to people outside the exact industry you are in. I don't think you want to imply that NBC isn't "fair" do you? That might not make the stockholders too happy. I don't think you're implying (in a public forum) that Simon, Jason, Ken and Cecile "cheat" the American public or that Fremantle Media isn't being honest in their posted rules. They might have something to say about that if you do really feel that way. The rules of the show are clearly stated along with the online voting and phone in policies. It is classed as a "Reality Talent Show" There are rules they follow but they stop short of ruling it as a competition. It's just about exposure. Yes, they "molded and groomed" Neal E. Boyd as a contender after the Paul Potts win in England.... but if America doesn't go along with it, it won't work. Remember, the goal is to clarify, not debate. I just didn't think tossing out the word "set-up" without clearly defining it for these readers was clear enough.
Ray Pierce
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Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
Ray,
You are too smart for this forum. You are absolutely correct about it not being predetermined. However, and a big however, they viewing/voting audience can be influenced by the judges and what they say after the acts. It is like the polls they take during an election year. So and so is up 30% then the media starts naming the next prez. I think that this is the case on AGT. The magician paopulation is small and not everyone of us votes so it really comes down to the lay people and they will most definitely change heir votes based on what the so call "professional talent judges" say. Do you agree? PAtrick |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2009-08-24 15:04, BYUDAD wrote: Absolutely, which is why they always cut to the judges comments even after their opinion has any true relevance. Many viewers look to them to be the arbiters of taste and knowledge regarding "talent" which is the most amazing bit of inspired lunacy perpetrated on the viewers. The problem is that as you've surmised... the people that know better don't usually vote. As you've noted... It is all the same as politics. The degree they attempt to manipulate the outcome varies from show to show but I was working on one "talent show" where the producer was in the booth actually talking to the "judges" via a wireless ear piece telling them exactly what to say. This was NOT AGT or AI but it was very clear that in this case the casting was for people to play the role of a judge more so than to actually judge. The judges could have an opinion on who they liked but ultimately it was the producers that made the final call on who went through each week. Remember that this is all designed to produce what the clients think makes for "good television" that will return viewers. It's not about the winner necessarily. It's just like a court of law isn't designed to find the "truth"... only to produce a "verdict". It's the difference in actual truth and theoretical truth.... kind of like Reality Talent Shows.
Ray Pierce
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Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
Ray,
Interesting point about the person talking to the judges. I wonder if this is what they do for AGT as well. I also wonder if they tell them when to buzz in certain circumstances. Patrick |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
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On 2009-08-24 18:57, BYUDAD wrote: My honest feeling is that they don't as these guys can keep it interesting on their own. I believe that they are given plenty of advance notes on each performer but not much more as they want to see a "real" reaction from the judges. Frequently the viewing audience doesn't go the way the producers plan and the judges want so they are understandably surprised by the outcome. This whole concept of bias towards singers is just that it's so much easier to wring emotion and passion from music than from magic. If you really want a Master Class in personality and charisma, study this audition from the X-Factor in England. If there was someone that could create this energy with magic, he might have a chance at winning. http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/sea......ortfilms
Ray Pierce
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Bairefoot Inner circle 1097 Posts |
Ray don't give out all the answers. Another thing is it also depends on what you follow in the show.
Bairefoot |
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revlovejoy Special user Pennsylvania 765 Posts |
I have read this thread with great interest. I really appreciate Ray's line of thinking. While I have been inclined to call the judges biased against magicians, it's pretty insulated for us as magic geeks to expect some kind of hobbyist-level respect without a wow factor. I cannot tell you how much I wanted to see Jay succeed. I was just so disappointed with what he brought as a wild card act. There were elements to it that, were I a conspiracy nut, made me think he's parodying magic on purpose to throw it for some reason.
Whether Bump has been "done before" is not the point. If the judges and the audience do not recall seeing it before, then that's what matters in an entertainment show, right? Isn't entertainment a venue where the customer is always right? I recently saw a well-known magician (among other magicians) with years of experience and lots of respect. The crowd was a bit tough to win over at this show. There came a point in the show where he literally said "come on people! I'm doing _____________ (fill in the blank with something he considered to be pretty difficult to do) show some respect here!" - now the lines worked with his overall personality, but at the same time, it made me really think about the difference between our work and the reaction. I am not at the level of talent of anyone on this Café, I am first to admit it. I do mostly children/family shows. There are times that I wish I got "appreciation" for the stuff that's harder for me to get right in rehearsal, instead of the huge reactions I get using routines with "self-working props." But if I let them know what was hard and what wasn't, am I not pulling back the curtain too much? As Ray said - we spend a lot of time hiding how much work and preparation goes into something. It's the effect, right? Not the method, not the history of it. If Denny Haney were on the show and got Sharon Osbourne up on stage with him to do the egg bag, I would bet they would love it. AGT is imperfect. In sooooo many ways. I doubt Drew would get Hoff's vote without the smoking hot blonde assistant. But it is what it is. I think of it as a modern gong show. (I'm just old enough to remember that, along with the $1.98 beauty pageant) Jay will continue to have a solid career. Drew may or may not get close to the top. And yeah, it's pre-scripted in many ways, but the top 4-5 are going to be people who show talent consistently. I look at it like pro wrestling. It's fake as heck as a sport, but I still admire the athleticism of the participants, even though I have no interest in the men's soap opera surrounding it. |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
" But if I let them know what was hard and what wasn't, am I not pulling back the curtain too much? As Ray said - we spend a lot of time hiding how much work and preparation goes into something. It's the effect, right? Not the method, not the history of it. "
One bit that old vaudeville magicians used (and I'm thinking of the single handed silk and billiard ball transposition associated with Robertson-Keene") while doing a difficult stunt was to say to the audience in a rather dry laconic manner: You know, I could have learned to play the violin three times over..in the time it took to learn this stunt." Will Rogers was not above letting the audience know (in a humorous manner )how difficult a stunt was and jugglers use similar bits. but confronting the audience for lack of applause and appreciation can come off as begging and in most hands reads amateurish. The relationship between a performer and his audience is a matter of control and for lack of a better word: domination. Sometimes an audience needs to be woken up and there are many methods for doing this that are not within the scope of this particular thread. My good friend Ray Pierce, has made a study of this (almost a science) and would be one of the persons to best address it within this forum. BTW- Is there a section of this forum that deals with teaching and advising on showmanship and applause technique? Because in my opinion , it is more needed than many other subjects.
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Pambalini New user 58 Posts |
To Ray Pierce: Somewhere in another topic I read where a Café member applauded you publicly on many areas. I'd like to second all those comments. You are a brilliant thinker and are so very professional in your delivery. If this open post causes you some minor embarrassment, I'm not sorry. If you got it, flaunt it! This is not intended to take anything away from any other Café member..... but you are exceptional.
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
QUOTED: “You know, I could have learned to play the violin three times over..in the time it took to learn this stunt."
While this quote may work for some performers, the individual magician must first decide: --Is he performing “magic” that will elicit wonder and enchantment? or --Is he demonstrating “skill” which will elicit appreciation of the talent and puzzle? Either may be valid, but you can’t have it both ways, you are either a “magical wizard” or a “skilled illusionist”. Just a crumb for thought…. Walt |
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JNeal Inner circle I used to have 999 posts, now I have 1617 Posts |
Thanks Walt for the insight. You are right, that kind of line won't work for all performers in all situations and I wouldn't even try it myself..it's not in my character. You have to decide who you are and what you are selling.
Funnily enough, I learned of the line from Dai Vernon! I'm not sure if he used the line himself during USO show but it's referenced in both his old column in Genii and in The Magic of Faucett Ross. Dai LOVED the line. I wonder which he considered himself: a magical wizard or a skilled illusionist?
visit me @ JNealShow.com
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Pam...
Thank you for those very nice words. I think you'll find an amazing array of talent and ideas online here as I have. There are many great thinkers from theory to specific applications in every discipline. I'm just glad to be a part of this community fostering discussions on magic and all its related arts. Thanks again!
Ray Pierce
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Max Krause V.I.P. I should be creating magic with my 1188 Posts |
I think it all comes down to creating an original performance. There is nothing more difficult than creating an act comprised of your own material. After all, If you are doing original material then absolutely no-one can expect was is going to happen and you should be an expert in presenting it since it is your own. After many years of performing I have made it a goal to have a 100% percent original show and this is no easy task by any means.
A singer uses their own voice. Ventriloquists as well. Dancers take different moves and choreograph them into routines. As magicians we have to think farther outside the box than most other artists because our art is so highly scrutinized. I don't feel Jay established himself as original or unique and that is one of the most critical elements which will set you apart from the masses. I do wish him the best and I think he has promise. To make it about lack of money is an excuse. Where there is a will there is a way. All it takes is time and a whole lot of creative thinking. A magician can win AGT, but only with an act that is unlike any before it. Max
ESP Woody's now available in Stage Size!
Max's Magic Shop is now open for business! Come experience a whole new way to buy your magic. Menta-List - Now with a killer new marketing feature! Mental Killer 4.5 is Live! |
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magic4545 Inner circle Jimmy Fingers 1159 Posts |
Bravo, Max. Finally someone understands why our art is viewed the way it is. It is so important to invent. There are so many people saying "There's nothing new under the sun..."
That's true if you don't create it. |
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