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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Ellusionst - CC2 better than Daryl's AmbitiousCard ? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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HiveMind
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Quote:
On 2003-06-05 18:33, Shaun Robinson wrote:
If anyone wants to reply to this, please state whether you are a working magician. Most here are, but I have no interest in the points of view of people who don't understand what it is to work for real people in real working environments.


Maybe everyone should also list all the
Ellusionist products they OWN before bashing
them. Some people have just joined the mob
on this one.

If you don't own ellusionist products then
you can only have an opinion on what other
people say about them, or about Brad's
outward actions. Your performing experience
can add little to the validity of your claim
if you haven’t seen them.

That said in recent months I have grown
totally sour of Ellusionist. Their forums
are a joke, working only to hype ellusionist
and keep the flock close so that they all
get wind of the next MUST HAVE video.

Its also a negative environment. If you ever
disagree with their moderators god help you.
I see all these kids who just want to be a
part of something, and they feel more welcome
at Ellusionist than other places. That is
disturbing on a few levels. One, because the
other magic communities are often harsh to
beginners, or just ignore them. Two because
those kids are paying a very high price both
monitarily and magically by hanging around
in those forums all day.

There is some value in some of Ellusionists
stuff though. Not everything about them is
bad. But on principle I will not buy, nor
could I endorse any of their products.

Their ID is marked up $20... maybe they mark
all their products up by $20.

This is one quality that I truly admire in a person - self-determination.

Brad has done wrong things to the magic community but he has the determination that we cannot deny.

I hope my message made sense to you guys. Take care. Smile
"Free will is an illusion." - B.F. Skinner
Craig Krisulevicz
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It shows lay people that magic isn't a talent, a gift, it can be bought over the Internet in downloadable files and in the words on that site " you will be amazing people in minutes". Call me a little silly, but some of us practice. Months of practice go into my effects before they go in my working routine.

I don't like all the advertisement on TV and the like. Although not stated by Shaun, I believe as he probably does, that a lot of people stumbled on to Ellusonist and now know powerful secrets. I know magic is getting more and more popular, but I like the fact that a lot of us practice a heck of a lot and we keep our mysteries to ourselves. Magic isn't a bandwagon for everyone to jump on, it IS an art and by its very nature it's inner workings are meant to be kept from public view.

Sure we all look at magic sites and this very forum is a hopping place for magicians, but we put in the effort to search for places like these. We didn't happen to stumble across it on Comedy Central now did we?
Who is John Galt?
anon
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Quote:
On 2003-06-05 18:26, Tor Egil wrote:
To this day I don't understand why people hate him and his products. Maybe because people just say he sucks, he is bad for magic.
Yes some of his stuff is a little overpriced. Well then don't buy his stuff and stop complaining. Nobody put a gun to your head.


Dearest deluded misguided Tor.

The issue is not cost, neither is the issue need. The issue is a clear cut one.

There is a little thing in this world called Intellectual Property Rights, Brad Christian is flagrantly violating the rights of a great many people. What he is doing is in fact Illegal. End of story, he should be locked up.
Chris Boyd
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Finally, someone brought up the REAL issue. Thanks, anon, I was just about to get to it.

1) He completely made up names for classic effects on the Street Magic package. Tsk tsk.

2) Everyone keeps saying "yah, but he redeemed himself beacause he admitted it and nows he ???? up" with their finger up nose. HE HAS NOT REDEEMED HIMSELF. The Street Magic Package is still for sale with all his made up names still on the video. There is exactly one link to a "credits" page on his site, on the first page WAAAAAY at the bottom in small print.

3) The REAL reason he should be locked up? He is selling secrets to effects WITHOUT PERMISSION! Brad was confronted with this issue on another forum (Private Message me for the link) and he responded with a post challenging the senior members of the forum to a magic contest, attempting to skirt the issue. Whatever.

Oh, and god forbid you purchase downloadable media from him (such as I did with Inside Magic). Downloaded videos are non-transferrable, because he wants to diminish copyright violations of his precious work.

An orange jumpsuit would look good on him, sure, but he won't go to jail. He'll never even get sued, what with IP rights being as sketchy as they are. The only thing that be done is to keep pointing at the flaws at the top of our lungs until the newbies hear us.

For the record, I have owned IM and both Ninja videos. They were, unfortunately, my introduction into this art. It was the good people here at the Café who guided me to my current status as Professional Magician, as I recently participated in my first paying table-hopping private party.
Chris Boyd
"Jaws dropping is the sweetest sound..."
blindbo
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Shaun you may not want to read this (you posted you are not interested in the points of view of non working magicians...I am not)

Brad sells magic. He does that pretty good. I think he's gotten the message many times over about effect naming and crediting. I believe I've read where he has remedied that.

His market is primarily the 18 and under crowd. Good market to have, if you ask me. Most of them grow out of magic fairly quickly and on to other things (just like kids do) and some will end up here at the Café and beyond.

I own 3 of his videos and they are ok for what they are. I have outgrown them (I am not a kid, though).

The only complaint I have about Brad is he wears too much eye shadow.
Chris Boyd
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Quote:
On 2003-06-05 19:47, blindbo wrote:
I think he's gotten the message many times over about effect naming and crediting. I believe I've read where he has remedied that.


He absolutely has not got the message. He will come to grips with his immorality when he either 1) stops selling secrets to effects that he has no permission from the original creators of those effects to sell, or 2) obtains permission to teach each and every item that he himself did not create (which is ALL of them) and then properly credit those effects and their creators.
Chris Boyd
"Jaws dropping is the sweetest sound..."
Paul Chosse
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The more you discuss this the more you help. Not magic, but Brad! If you boycott the site, refuse to purchase from him, and drop his name from your vocabulary, you will have an effect on his business, which is, of course, the only thing that will really get someone's attention in a situation like this.
Unfortunately, magicians have a tendency to act like prostitutes. If the person you are complaining about today has an exclusive on a trick you want tomorrow, magicians will patronize the "bad guy" to get the trick, then complain about him the day after tomorrow. How do I know this to be true? Well I can cite dozens of examples, but the most obvious one is an Idaho dealer. I have not owned a product by this dealer in over 20 years. That means not only will I not buy from him, I will not buy something that came from him, even used! Anything that in anyway supports him is off limits. But if it is second hand how does that profit him? It is just a bit further down the food chain is all. Now, I have done without some very good material as a result of this choice, but I can say anything I please, knowing that there is no hypocrisy in my stance. Stop giving this guy free publicity, don't buy ANYTHING from him or by him, and don't listen to complaints from people who continue to support him, and you will have an impact. If everyone did this he would either change his methods or go out of business.

Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
LeConte
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Mr. Chosse is correct with his logic. This thread is way off topic to boot. A hardcore review of this product and then a legitimate comparison to the brilliant Daryl video has yet to be seen!

Would you rather take some of the precious little time that you possess to read and respond to this thread to simply bash the easiest target in all of magic, or perhaps read and expound upon “Cardini’s Act- Year 1931", which as of this writing has 2 replies and only 84 views? Go ahead and let Mr Chosse’s incredible and priceless glimpse into our art die and fall to the wayside with barely a whimper. I’m sure this thread will stay near the top of the forum page for days, and YES I know that I am helping it do just that with this reply!
Drive Carefully
Bone
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Quote:
On 2003-06-05 18:10, iamslow wrote:
Everyone has to find a way to make a living and Brad has found his own way. Just remember, Houdini was the highest paid entertainer of his time and he did that by making claims that were a little exagerated.I definately know that he wasnt the king of cards. well, just my .01 cent


Are you comparing Brad and Houdini ? Of couse you think Brad is King of cards and Houdini can't even fan a deck.

Bone.
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SDR
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Hey Blindbo, as long as your not an e-kiddy, I'm satisifed with your opinion and I respect it.

I agree with this logic that has been set. Talking about him only helps him, any publicity is good publicity right?

I'm glad I've had a chance to air my views about him, and I'm ecstatic about all you guys who replied, with the same views as me.

I'm going to see what can be done about this.
TimsWheelbarrow
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As much as the whole e-llusionist debate has got a little stale, I think it is still important that there be threads pointing out the way that Brad is doing business. I myself only encountered the Ninja series a week or two ago (have been out of the loop for a while), and was most relieved to have the chance to find out what they are actually like before shelling out my hard earned pennies.

That said, actual reviews with comparisons would be an easier format if anyone wants to take the time to write them
Chris Boyd
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...and that is exactly the reason I think these posts about e.com need to exist: to clue people in. Even if we save only one person out of a hundred, you still have to feel pretty good. I know I do right now (congrats Tim)!

I don't think the "Bad publicity is good publicity" argument works here. For instance, I have seen the numerous negative reviews for Pete Best's magic shop. Because of them, I plan on never buying a thing from him.

Unfortunately, typing "David Blaine" into the web search engines (Google, Yahoo!, Altavista, Dogpile), with or without quotation marks, will yield a link to ellusionist as the very first link. So, it would seem that, by the time the true students of magic come to our doorstep, they will have almost certainly been exposed to Christian's House of Lies, and it is quite likely they will have already had dealings with him, making our advice too little too late for them. This is certainly the case for me.

Even if bad publicity actually was good publicity, our ravings here do very little in the grand scheme of things...Brad will still amass his dirty fortune either way. My "raison d'etre" in these threads is people like TimsWheelbarrow.
Chris Boyd
"Jaws dropping is the sweetest sound..."
Tor Egil
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Quote:
On 2003-06-05 18:51, Clarence wrote:
Tor Egil is baronen in the Ellusionist forums. LOL!

Ahh, ic. Maybe his jealous of David Copperfield? Hahaha. Smile


Oh no BUSTED!!! Smile
RichardJones
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>Let's see now! Which came first, the "Daryl" or the "Ellusionist"? I'd stick with Daryl!

Logic is a virtue.

Remember that the geocentric paradigm came first.
jacksorbetter
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Mr. Hammmer, <coughs>, Mr. Boyd:

When was it decided that not getting someone's permission before teaching his published effect is immoral, stealing etc?

I have seen quite a number of people on different boards promoting this view with an unbelievable level of self-righteousness. It is definitely not obvious to me that this is a moral "truth" nor is it clear to me that it is better for magic as a whole, and as such I don't really agree with it.

Congratulations on your first show.
Tor Egil
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Yeah, I guess I'm a terrible magician if I go to E. I'm a kid. A Blaine wannabe. I do every thing Blaine does. If he doesn't make another special then I don't have any material. My patter for every trick is " Watch,mlook look, see, now watch watch" My missdirection goes like this. " Watch the birdie".
Blaine is the best magician.
jacksorbetter
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Notice, that the word "ellusionist" not once appeared in my post. I am not defending Brad per se. I am just pointing out that you (and many others) have this notion that teaching someone else's published effect w/o getting their expicit permission is 1) immoral 2) stealing 3) bad for magic.

You have addressed number 3. You are arguing that those magicians who create original effects will have no incentive to release them since there will be no profit motive and that this outcome will be bad for magic. I can see how this result would be bad for magic, but I doubt that it follows. In fact, currently, the state of the world is such that teaching others' effects without permission is implicitly allowed, (obviously Brad and others do it, and there is a CRUSADE to disallow it). Do you see every magician hiding behind a rock, fearful of releasing anything because someone else may teach it? no.

Certainly some do. Others keep the good stuff to themsleves and release "lesser" material. Others charge such high prices as to ensure that those that buy it will never reveal the secret. Some magicians, however, release "A" material with little or no profit motive. There is a spectrum of possibilities that depends on the motives of the magician releasing the material.

In your model you are assuming two things.

1) the most important incentive for "REAL" magicians to release their work is profit. i.e. if you eliminate the profit motive entirely then no "real" magician would release his or her work. This may be true sometimes but absolutely not always.

2) allowing others to teach their released effects freely will eliminate the profit motive which you assume is most important. This is also not obvious to me. Are you claiming that Brad is cutting into Roy Walton's pocket by teaching Card Warp on his video?

I don't see it, but then I am not a "real" magician.

As for CC2, I can't really say, since I don't own it.
iamslow
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Quote:
On 2003-06-06 02:57, Bone wrote:
Quote:
On 2003-06-05 18:10, iamslow wrote:
Everyone has to find a way to make a living and Brad has found his own way. Just remember, Houdini was the highest paid entertainer of his time and he did that by making claims that were a little exagerated.I definately know that he wasnt the king of cards. well, just my .01 cent


Are you comparing Brad and Houdini ? Of couse you think Brad is King of cards and Houdini can't even fan a deck.

Bone.

Hey bone, I don't think Brad is the king of cards.. all I am saying is that Brad found his way to make some $$$$.. Its basically catering to the David Blaine followers. He sells it like its his own stuff and that's how he gets his reputation from unknowing buyers. He is not the greatest magician out there, but he knows how to pimp out his products and his reputation. that's why he's successful. Smile
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
Otis Day
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-A hardcore review of this product and then a comparison to the brilliant Daryl video has yet to be seen!

No help from you, Mr Complainer.

-I’m sure this thread will stay near the top of the forum page for days!

With help from you. And me. But I wasn't complaining about it and then helping exactly what I was complaining about.
LeConte
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Otis, you missed to whole point of my post!!!

Cheers!
Drive Carefully
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