|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] | ||||||||||
Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
Watchmaker, good question.
Because they would be purchased by a collector, I suppose it depends upon a wide variety of variables: Condition, Material, Which Run are they from, Who was the spinner, Who owned/performed with them & the Rarity of all of the above. Plus the economy makes a difference too. I doubt anyone would purchase vintage "original" PF cups and actually use them. New sets are only $250.00 Maybe Bill can chime in and give us some estimate on current market values. |
|||||||||
lint Special user Concord, CA 967 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-09-08 13:40, DDecae wrote: This line of thinking always leaves me scratching my head. Why not? They are solid metal with no moving parts. Sure I wouldn't bang them with the end of my wand hard enough to damage them (I am not a busker), but I wouldn't even do that to my $15 Morrissey cups. It is much harder to damage a cup than I think most people suspect. And much easier to have one fixed than most understand. -todd
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
|
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Back when we had an economy (remember money?), the Paul Fox cups that were produced by Danny Dew went for $400 - $1500, depending on condition, provenance, metal and finish. Now the range for the same cups is $250 - $1000.
There were perhaps a dozen sets that were actually spun by Paul Fox. I know where two of them are. I don't have any of them. I do have several sets that were produced by Danny Dew, though. I say "produced" because Danny did not actually spin them. Perigee in Phoenix, AZ spun most of them. Rings and Things spun one run of them. As far as damage is concerned, sometimes cups get bent in shipping. Other times they have the plating worn off them, especially silver ones. Sometimes, they have "wand pecks" and dents.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Ragman Regular user 161 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-09-04 00:59, Bill Palmer wrote: I do want to make it clear that I do not belive that ripping off magical property is right in any way...That out of the way I do have a question, why is it so bad that an independant company puts out a set of cups? I understand saying that a set of MM cups being Paul Fox is not cool, but I believe that the cups and balls does not belong to anyone. Please don't think I am making a stand for MM that is not the case. If you think about it, you might not have been introduced to the cups and balls if it had not been a knock of sorts. I know my first set was not made by Paul Fox. I would have to thank Royal magic for thier cheaper alternative. Perhaps I am missing the point here, I am asking for a bit of enlightenment. |
|||||||||
Richard Evans Inner circle 1379 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-09-18 10:17, Ragman wrote: You're quite right to say that no-one owns the cups & balls. But people who put time and money into designing a particular style of cup should not be ripped off by someone else copying that design. Think of it like cars: Ford produced the first commerically available motor car, but Ford doesn't own the concept of the car. Now, lots of companies produce cars of their own design. Ferrari would not be pleased if a competitor copied their design exactly and produced a much cheaper (but inferiorly-made) car with an under-powered engine and bad paintwork. You could argue that there are two issues. Firstly, there's the issue of someone making money by illegally copying someone else's original work. Secondly, a poor quality rip-off can reflect badly on the original.
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I only lock every other one. I figure no matter how long somebody stands there picking the locks, they are always locking three. Elayne Boosler
|
|||||||||
cupsandballsmagic Inner circle 2705 Posts |
Quote:
Ferrari would not be pleased if a competitor copied their design exactly and produced a much cheaper (but inferiorly-made) car with an under-powered engine and bad paintwork. ...and as we are talking about ebay, that situation happens on a regular basis with "Ferrari" kit cars. The listings are taken down if the seller words the add in a way that people could think it is a Ferarri. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Here's the problem, Ragman. A person who is basically unaware of the characteristics of genuine Paul Fox cups, either originals or the ones later made by RnT II, may believe that he or she is getting the "real thing." A genuine, vintage set of Paul Fox cups from the 1960's through the 1970's is worth anywhere from $200 (for a really trashed set) to $2000 (triple silver plate with provenance.) Before the economic crash, these values were about 50% higher.
Before I had managed to get a dozen or so sets together, I would have been fooled by a set of the second run of Penguin cups. Now, if you put a vintage copper Paul Fox cup on a table next to a second run Penguin cup, I can tell you which is which from a distance of about six feet -- and my eyes are not all that good. The reason is that I have handled enough of them that I know the way that they were spun. If you are a beginner and you don't know the differences, you may assume that you have found a real bargain. From time to time, real bargains do surface on the big auction site. For example, about a year ago, I got a nearly perfect set of the cups that Rings and Things spun for Danny Dew for about a quarter of their market value. Why? The other collectors were wary of them. I subsequently traded them for a set of cups that were made in East Germany. Just recently, I got a set of cups that the seller was convinced were PF/DD knockoff chick cups. They weren't. They were early PF/DD chick cups. The seller had never used them. I got them for a fairly low price. They filled in a vacant spot in my collection. Just for the sake of completeness and accuracy, I order one of every set of cups that comes on the market -- knockoff and original -- so I have a way of telling all of you what to look for or so I can tell you what is good, what is bad and what is fake. The Paul Fox cups and the Monti cups have been knocked off by more people than any other cup designs. When a seller identifies their product as "Paul Fox cups" in the title of their listing, I see a red flag. When they show a photo of a "Paul Fox cup" with a tennis ball inside it, then I KNOW something is wrong. Now, there is nothing wrong with anybody putting out a set of cups. But their is something wrong with someone putting out a set of cups that is a copy of someone else's proprietary work and (mis) representing it as the original or selling it with an ad that confuses the purchaser into believing that they are purchasing the original or the equivalent. In some parts of the world, this constitutes a trademark violation. That's why you don't see American brands of Roquefort cheese or German brands of champagne. These are regional titles that belong to the countries that manufacture the originals. Sadly, there are design elements of cups that have become the grounds of contention between manufacturers. In some cases, the copying is obvious. In other cases, it isn't. I used to be more outspoken about these things on the Café; however, in more recent months I found it far more productive to address these issues directly to the producers of the items in question via e-mail rather than to throw these things out on the forum where they would simply be either edited or removed. The situation with this auction seller is a bit different.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
lint Special user Concord, CA 967 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-09-18 13:48, Bill Palmer wrote: I watched that auction. They were beautiful cups.
"There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip..." -English Proverb
|
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
When I saw them, on the net, I was fairly certain that they were the real thing. Then I got them and compared them to the brass ones I already had. They were spot on.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Ragman Regular user 161 Posts |
Thank you for clearing that up, I was really wondering what aspect exactly was the problem with producing the cups and balls and you have certainly covered it.
Posted: Sep 18, 2009 4:19pm I would then be correct in assuming that if a company said these are comparable to/ or similair to Paul fox would be more respectable. This would of course be in comparison to saying this set is a Paul Fox set...Or is the idea to only sell a set that you designed from the ground up. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
When a company says that something is similar to a Paul Fox cups or is patterned after a Paul Fox cup, that is far more respectable than saying that it IS a Paul Fox cup.
It is, of course, desirable to see actual progress in the world of cups and balls, so when a designer comes out with something that is different for one reason or another, such as the James Riser small jumbo cup or the Brett Sherwood cups, this produces progress in the world of cups and balls. There are certain commonalities in cup design. Since the cups and balls is a trick that is at least 2000 years old, if not older, it's hard to imagine anything that hasn't been done before. However, size variations and structural variations make it very interesting. Many of the popular designs are really answers to problems that cups and balls workers discovered while performing. The Gazzo/Gary Animal cups are, to a certain extent, a variation on the Paul Fox double bead design. The Gazzo cups are larger, heavier, and far sturdier. And nobody would confuse them with a Paul Fox cup. Two of the most valuable sets of cups in the world are copies of Paul Fox cups. These are the cups that were designed in Iran which ultimately were intended for Vernon. When you have a "ground-up" design, you can tell whether it was done by a worker. Look at the Sherwood cups. These were obviously done by someone who actually does the cups and balls.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts |
No possible arguing Bill: you know these things so much better than any of us. I took however, as you know, another stand which was to design routines with cups that amateurish/beginner magicians could not easily recognize. This also led me to initially load the cups from the top a la Fred Kaps/Dan Tong/Senatorr Crandall/Jean Merlin before turning the cups mouth down to prevent access to the balls. The point was that if people don't associate the cups with sleight of hand, they follow the effects instead of anticipating their recognition of what they know (and possibl their prejudices). Hence the Bucelatti cup that you know well and the routine on the Japanese Tea ceremony with Ocha Cups that I sent you a while ago. Now since I'm not doing magic for magicians, it may sound a bit too careful, but... I have a huge respect for the spectators I'm performing for (they are entitled to the best that I can deliver).
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
|
|||||||||
Ragman Regular user 161 Posts |
Bill, I want to thank you for clarifying all of that for me, I am just in awe of how generous you are with your time to help people with questions.
Have you ever given thought to designing a set of Palmer Cups, with your expertise you could certainly come up with a set that would do the world of magic a favor I am sure! |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Thank you for your kind words. I have not given any thought to designing a set of cups, probably because it would be very difficult for me to figure out a design that would be different enough to justify manufacture. But one never knows!
Regarding the cups from Hong Kong that have recently been advertised on the big auction site -- They are a bit larger than a genuine Paul Fox cup. The weight is about 4.9 ounces per cup. They are almost exactly 3 inches tall. The I.D. at the mouth is 2.7 inches. The shoulder beads are not as well-defined as any of the genuine Paul Fox cups. The tennis ball that is furnished with the cup is the smallest "regular" tennis ball I have ever seen -- 2.5 inches in diameter in one direction, but almost 2.54 inches in diameter on a different axis. Out of curiosity, I did try a normal tennis ball, as well as one of the Sherwood load balls, and both actually fit the cup. So, it is definitely larger than a genuine Paul Fox cup. The smaller balls are somewhat crude, but are about 1.1 inch in diameter. I'm not sure of the material. It might be flocked cork. Looking at the saddle of the cup at a slight angle, I noticed that there is a hint of a flatness in the center of the saddle -- not as pronounced as the MM brass cups, but definitely there. The cups are very clean, though, which is a step above the Penguin/MM cups. I have a feeling that someone has read some of the things I wrote about these other knockoffs and has taken these things seriously. In a way, these are better cups than the other Paul Fox style cups that have come out of Asia. They are 1/4 inch taller and about 1/4 inch larger in diameter. The weight is good and the work consistent within the set. They will not easily be mistaken for the genuine article, but they are serviceable cups. The packing was barely adequate. It consisted of a box about like a dozen decks of cards are sold in, and an envelope that fit the whole set of cups. The package had been dropped at least once and was somewhat tattered. However, the cups did survive. I think these are a better value than the other Asian copies I have seen.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
cupsandballsmagic Inner circle 2705 Posts |
Maybe ones not to avoid then Bill? They actually sound okay. Thank you for the info on these, as always your insight is greatly appreciated.
Bri |
|||||||||
Ragman Regular user 161 Posts |
I do have another question; is it possible to still get the Camerand Academy cups? If memory serves it was Gary Oulette who used(maybe deigned them. I would be interested to know a little more about them.
|
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I've only seen two sets of the Camirand cups in the last five years. One was the two cup set, the other a three cup set.
One cup in each set was a chop cup. The basic problem with these is that they were made of brass that was not annealed properly. The gimmicked cup has a tendency to develop a split. One of the sets I got, I don't remember which one, had been covered with a layer of grunge that required about 12 hours of cleaning and polishing to get them to look passable. They still have a lot of surface pitting, but it doesn't show up too much. The fellow I got them from felt that I should have paid more for them, once I got them cleaned up; however, as I explained to him, the price I paid was based on the condition they were in at the time of the purchase, not what they would look like after I had put a LOT of time in on them. Quote:
On 2009-09-19 20:10, mindyourmagic wrote: I think I would actually prefer to see a beginner who wanted to upgrade from a cheap set to a better set purchase these than a set that was a little smaller. I suppose that's because these won't pass for a Paul Fox set. At least not with an informed purchaser.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Ragman Regular user 161 Posts |
With all that has been said in this thread we should start a game called "Name That Cup" Have Bill touch, smell, or hear a set nested together...I bet he could tell which ones they are.
|
|||||||||
cupsandballsmagic Inner circle 2705 Posts |
Ragman, some say that Bill can look a man in the eye and tell him what his NEXT set of cups will be...
|
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
That reminds me of a joke that I can't put out here, but the punch line was "You've stumped me. It's either the door to the head or a hatch cover from a tuna clipper."
Or the classic -- "Thass right. Now where'm I from and how old am I?" I've heard rumors that some of the people on this forum and/or cupscon.com have been known to tell their wives, "But Bill Palmer said my next set of cups was going to be the Engraved Silver Sherwoods." See how lucky you guys are? I don't have anyone to blame but myself!
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Things to avoid on the big auction site. (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.06 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |