The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » What's Next (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2~3 [Next]
Zachary
View Profile
Loyal user
275 Posts

Profile of Zachary
I have to wonder, especially in cards, what's next? The next month, the next year, the next decade and so forth... I fully respect the 'legends' of magic, though it seems we are heading for an era of lukewarm sleights and concepts. Unlike music, having truly infinite permutations, our art is limited to a far more specific set of parameters. I know we will always worship the ones who originated sleights and those who refined them to perfection, but it seems that the essentials of our craft are set fairly solid at this point in any given genre. There seems to be a general consensus as to what is the ideal pass, in the hands false shuffle, coin vanish/change/ditch, and so on and so forth. On top of that, the word 'plot' makes me ill knowing that pretty much every one is a variation of a predecessor and/or has a hundred plus 'takes' on it. We, as magicians, tend to worship the gaps in our understanding, but when does it become splitting hairs for dollars. Magic hasn't died for me, rather it's more alive than ever... I just present this perspective to you in an attempt to understand what qualities the 'legends' of tomorrow will posess. A lot to digest surely...
Twitter:@Zachary_Heath
Instagram: @zachheathmagic
Ben Train
View Profile
Inner circle
Erdnase never had
4632 Posts

Profile of Ben Train
I'm not sure where you came to the notion that music posses infinite possibilities but magic is somehow limited.

With a guitar there are a finite number of notes. There are also a finite number of ways to play those notes, in a specific order, assuming songs do not go on for an infinite amount of time (it would be an astronomically LARGE number, but still finite).

Magic, on the other hand, does not have a finite number of notes- new things are being created all the time, which opens the door for new plots and routines.

How can you say the "essentials of our craft are set fairly solid at this point in any given genre..." while at the same time talking about music "having truly infinite permutations"? Is there new ways of playing an F sharp that I don't know about? Have we discovered new notes?

Next you say that "the word 'plot' makes me ill knowing that pretty much every one is a variation of a predecessor and/or has a hundred plus 'takes' on it." Again using music as an example, as you have, can you list me new songs that are being created that share no similarities to previous works? Totally new subject matter (say, something not about love?), totally new note combination, etc. I doubt such a thing exists. It may not be intentional, but it's unlikely that someone has something new because there may be a finite number of combination that are pleasing to listen too! ...or maybe not.

Finally, you mention that there seems to be a "general consensus as to what is the ideal pass, in the hands false shuffle, coin vanish/change/ditch, and so on and so forth." Really? I'll bet you for every response you get praising one technique I can find someone skilled to tell you the opposite.

A lot to digest surely...
;)

Ben
p.s.
I love you.
If you're reading this you're my favorite magician.
abc
View Profile
Inner circle
South African in Taiwan
1081 Posts

Profile of abc
Excellent response Ben. I look forward to meeting you when I move to Canada in a few years.
As for my take on the question.
The legends of tomorrow will possess the exact same qualities as those of today and those of before.
They will be very skilled entertainers.
MickeyPainless
View Profile
Inner circle
California
6074 Posts

Profile of MickeyPainless
There hasn't been any decent music written since the early 70's! Smile
The Burnaby Kid
View Profile
Inner circle
St. John's, Canada
2975 Posts

Profile of The Burnaby Kid
The plot is actually the beginning of what makes magic wonderful. Just because most magicians don't raise the plot above the bare bones of a trick doesn't mean it's the plot's fault -- it's the failure of the magician who can't understand what can be done with the plot. The plot, and how it plays out, tells the audience what kind of magician you are. Are you funny? Solemn? Profound? Sly? Is your magic mysterious? Unexpected? Does it always work out properly? How do you relate to your audience? Do you have power over them, or do they have power over you, or do you work together to make everything happen? What does your magic trick offer in the way of meaning? Is it metaphorical? Is it aesthetically beautiful? Is it absurd? Any of these questions can be answered with even the lowliest pick-a-card trick, and yet they're the basis for great theater.

And you don't have to go with some "popular" card plot or one of its many variations. Pick something simple. Take a colour-change. Why are you doing it in the first place? What do we learn about you by the way the trick unfolds? What comes next?

These days there are pretty much only two card tricks I do for people -- either the multiple selection routine or the Everywhere and Nowhere variant. Neither of those titles gives much in the way of helpful information for what the tricks are like, because it's all about how the tricks play out.
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Lawrence O
View Profile
Inner circle
Greenwich (CT)
6799 Posts

Profile of Lawrence O
Quote:
On 2009-09-18 02:15, MickeyPainless wrote:
There hasn't been any decent music written since the early 70's! Smile

you mean that we know of?
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Lawrence O
View Profile
Inner circle
Greenwich (CT)
6799 Posts

Profile of Lawrence O
Quote:
On 2009-09-18 02:42, Andrew Musgrave wrote:
The plot is actually the beginning of what makes magic wonderful. Just because most magicians don't raise the plot above the bare bones of a trick doesn't mean it's the plot's fault -- it's the failure of the magician who can't understand what can be done with the plot. The plot, and how it plays out, tells the audience what kind of magician you are. Are you funny? Solemn? Profound? Sly? Is your magic mysterious? Unexpected? Does it always work out properly? How do you relate to your audience? Do you have power over them, or do they have power over you, or do you work together to make everything happen? What does your magic trick offer in the way of meaning? Is it metaphorical? Is it aesthetically beautiful? Is it absurd? Any of these questions can be answered with even the lowliest pick-a-card trick, and yet they're the basis for great theater.

And you don't have to go with some "popular" card plot or one of its many variations. Pick something simple. Take a colour-change. Why are you doing it in the first place? What do we learn about you by the way the trick unfolds? What comes next?
...


This says it all IMHO
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Zachary
View Profile
Loyal user
275 Posts

Profile of Zachary
I should have known the likes of Mr. Musgrave and Mr. Train would tear my post apart until there was nothing left to identify it by. And I'm glad! When I was relating magic to music I knew that it would come under fire. I meant, more or less, that we are restricted by angles, leaving a seemingly finite space in which to create sleights. As for your response to plot Andrew, I couldn't agree more. It just bums me out that so many people, not to mention names, will release a book, DVD, or set of notes that is filled with tired plots using more muddled handlings than the current ones just to make a few bucks. I have no room to even begin discussing this granted I haven't published anything myself and I think I'm ranting, so it's probably best to stop here. Thanks for your responses guys! Maybe I'm just being pessimistic.
Twitter:@Zachary_Heath
Instagram: @zachheathmagic
Lawrence O
View Profile
Inner circle
Greenwich (CT)
6799 Posts

Profile of Lawrence O
It takes guts to be optimistic and creative because when you fail, you get criticized and pessimists find in our failures a justification in their sad predictions. But when we succeed nobody blames them for their gloomy predictions.
If we want to get into the ring with the champions, we can't expect not to receive punches and we need to be prepared for punches that are heavier than the ones we got when being 12 or 13 at school.

With all my bruises and scars, I love optimism and positive thinking: it gave me a richer life (in family, business and magic). Zacharias, I can tell that you are drawn to it and you are welcome.
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
Lance Pierce
View Profile
Special user
878 Posts

Profile of Lance Pierce
As Ben pointed out, music is basically composed of the same set of notes and chords. Magic is also, for the most part, composed of a finite set of moves, subtleties, etc. After all, only a definite number currently exist.

But there is always experimentation. There are people pushing the boundaries, like one musician and her experimentation with 64th and 128th notes and measures (and deeper), delving into smaller and smaller beats and hitting finer and finer tones. There are comparable efforts in magic, too, since while the current set of available components in either is always finite, the possibilities are always endless.

It's been my experience and observation that music which is totally new and doesn't have significant ties to what came before is also usually unlistenable. John Cage has been lauded for his genius, but even fellow musicians have a hard time making an evening of his stuff. Likewise in magic, the most revolutionary ideas rarely result in good magic. However, music and magic also slowly move forward to incorporate those bold experiments in time, so progress is made.

In the meantime, with our eight basic notes plus the sharps and flats, we can combine them in seemingly endless ways. There is not only the order of the notes, there is the tonal quality of each, the volumes, the lengths of the notes, the tempo, and the ineffable quality that manifests itself when a composition strikes home with a listener. Magic is the same way.

Vernon once pointed out that there have been no new card plots since Out of This World. 17 years after his passing, that still seems to be the case. This hasn't slowed magic as a performing art. We still are infinite in all directions with what we have. It's endless.

Truly endless.
Adam1975
View Profile
Special user
UK
895 Posts

Profile of Adam1975
Not a valid comparision...there are only 8 notes as pointed out...so certainly not infinite....not sure I really understand your point to be honest,comes across a bit EMO! Smile
Ive upped my standards.Now,up yours!
abc
View Profile
Inner circle
South African in Taiwan
1081 Posts

Profile of abc
There are 13 notes (or twelve depending) on how you are counting. There are only 8 notes in a normal scale and only 5 (if you omit the blues note) in a pentatonic scale. There are lead guitarists who can build amazing solos just using a pentatonic scale with variation in speed, bends, releases, hammer on and pull of slide etc.
So I stand by my firts comment. Except for one or two, thelegends of tommorow will be skilled entertainers just like today.
BTW
Great post Mr Musgrave.
Zachary
View Profile
Loyal user
275 Posts

Profile of Zachary
Hey Lance,
Just read your post and realized you're in Oklahoma city. I'm on my way to the state fair right now. I live in Weatherford about 70 miles away,but I'm up there all the time. When was the last time you sessioned with someone? It's been years for me, so let me know if you ever need a fresh perspective.
Twitter:@Zachary_Heath
Instagram: @zachheathmagic
Ben Train
View Profile
Inner circle
Erdnase never had
4632 Posts

Profile of Ben Train
Zach,

if Lance CAN meet up with you, you're in for a treat. He's one of the nicest, most talented, and sexiest men I've ever met.

Ben
If you're reading this you're my favorite magician.
Count Lustig
View Profile
Elite user
456 Posts

Profile of Count Lustig
Quote:
On 2009-09-18 11:24, Lance Pierce wrote:
It's been my experience and observation that music which is totally new and doesn't have significant ties to what came before is also usually unlistenable...

I disagree. I could listen to 4'33" all day.
prototype
View Profile
Veteran user
Rick Holcombe
320 Posts

Profile of prototype
Musical combinations ARE infinite. One of the first things I learned while taking guitar lessons was an acronym: IDIC. Infinite Demonminations Infinite Combinations. With 12 individual notes you can do many things. When you add octaves it changes what appears to be the same thing. Then, get into chords and its even more infinite, by changing the aspect of each individual note that makes up that chord ie: diminished, dominate, suspended, augmented, flats, sharps, 7ths, 9ths etc. etc. Then, the combination of chords played in a pattern. Then arpeggios for crying out LOUD! Then, throw in tempo, rhythm, tone, and harmony.
I think magic is infinite, but our main obstacle is that we are still laying the foundation. The main difference between magic and music is that music has been figured out, it's just up to you and education to put an original song together. With magic who's to say everything has been created? Have all sleights been thought of? Have all the gaffs been made? With music there are no more scales to discover, no more notes to be found. The structure is already there but the possibilities are infinite. With magic we have much structure, but in my opinion there will always be new stuff coming. And it will be infinite regardless with what has already been discovered. You have endless cominations of sleights and plots to make "new" effects right now.
prototype
View Profile
Veteran user
Rick Holcombe
320 Posts

Profile of prototype
By the way, do yourselves a favor and listen to "The Mars Volta" and "King Crimson"
The Burnaby Kid
View Profile
Inner circle
St. John's, Canada
2975 Posts

Profile of The Burnaby Kid
Quote:
On 2009-09-18 11:48, abc wrote:
BTW
Great post Mr Musgrave.


Aw thanks. I'd give you a hug for that, but Ben's around and he gets a little too excited by that sort of thing.
A screed for scams, sorcery, and other shenanigans... Nu Way Magick Blogge

JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
prototype
View Profile
Veteran user
Rick Holcombe
320 Posts

Profile of prototype
I thought of another valid point regarding infinity: Most of magic consists of card and/or coin effects. But, we have an infinite amount of objects available to us. You could perform the same effect with a different object and to the audience it could be a completely new experience. As with music think about how many re-mixes and song covers have been done while resulting in a completely different take on the original version.
Ben Train
View Profile
Inner circle
Erdnase never had
4632 Posts

Profile of Ben Train
Music is infinite? Isn't there a limit on decibel levels that humans can hear, sounds waves we can hear, etc? If everything has a limit, even if it's an astronomically large number, then isn't it by definition finite?

I'm not saying the possible number combination would be incalculably high... but it's still finite...

I'm just in a wacky mood. Ignore me.
Ben
p.s.
Guys, you should hug. Yah, that would be nice... nice...
If you're reading this you're my favorite magician.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » What's Next (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.18 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL