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Bret Maverick
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Quote:
By Silverking: We're all "learners" in this forum.

Ain’t THAT the truth – the day I stop learning is the day they nail the box shut over me.
Quote:
By No. 92: You start shuffling face up. You have long runs of single cards. You hesitate in a number of parts. Your shuffling is much too deliberate.

Exactly and, on the second video jmstrings posted, the flaws were even more pronounced.
Quote:
By No. 92: Why are you posting videos? To get constructive feedback, or to show the world that you're the real deal and know how to move?

Good questions 92, although likely rhetorical. The thing that irked me immediately about jmstrings’ post was that there was no doubt in my mind that he posted that message thinking that his card handling superiority would wow the magicians here by demonstrating and enlightening us with manipulations that we had, heretofore, never seen before he arrived (alas, he was correct from that point of view, as I had never seen a one handed overhand shuffle or a table riffle performed face-up; to see both demonstrated in one performance was mindboggling). His message was written in a condescending tone, offered as a voice of authority, as if a knowledgeable master were warning his students that cheats as talented as he could be sitting next to them in any poker game:
Quote:
…this could be happening in a poker game as one of the players is taking a second to chat about the last hand, and the dealer is shuffling the cards… Point is, there will never be heat or attention on the dealer, ever... unless you call it to yourself... Just let this remind you to be careful about who you play cards with. The most unsuspecting guy will be the most lucrative cheater.

Quote:
By Splice: But I still can't think of a single case, ever, where you would choose to shuffle the deck face up.

That was my first thought, too, but then I mused that perhaps he was going to demonstrate how he could show a rank sucker seated to his left the card faces during the overhand shuffles to make him think that he could (as Scarne would have called it) “case the deck” for key cards, only to bust the chump afterwards with a good move or two by shifting the location of those key cards to suit the dealer’s need (albeit, I was not envisioning the seemingly endless series of awkwardly deliberate moves that followed). Alas, I was wrong; there was no ulterior motive to the face-up overhand shuffle.
Quote:
by Maitre D: I think if you had introduced yourself on this forum and asked for constructive criticism, rather than boasting the video as some sort of informative "how-to" with complex X and Y variables, you would have received a much more pleasant response.

Precisely; he posted this video solely to impress the membership that he mistakenly believed was comprised magicians lacking gambling savvy.

Silverking, as usual, hit the nail on the proverbial head when he offered jmstrings the following advice:
Quote:
You're sort of talking out the side of your mouth on this one my friend, and rather than dig a deeper hole trying to offer up what you "really meant", read the forum in its entirety, and then join the club!

Jmstrings, to his credit, appeared to have heeded that advice, at least temporarily:
Quote:
I hear ya. When speaking of my experience cheating, I choose my words carefully. I do not want a record of anything. Make what you want of the way I phrased it. I did that with intent.

I am quite confused about why I am getting flamed, though. Maybe if I had added what this video was demonstrating in my original post, this wouldn't be happening.

All that being said, I'm here to learn. I record and post videos for this very purpose -- to get feedback. There is ALWAYS room for improvement.

I have practiced and (I think, at least) become quite good at Jimmy Molinari's "molinari cull". I am more of a magician than a cheater, in the sense that I'm performing and taking up the magician role much more often than the cheating gambler role. I see now I have a lot to learn about the ladder.

I am still confused by jmstrings’ admission that he does not cheat because it is unethical and immoral (values I respect) but, he then refers to his “experience cheating” to support his claim that his moves have been tested under fire. Such contradictions offer only two possibilities:

1) jmstrings has no real cheating experience because he has never cheated anyone in a money game; or

2) jmstrings has cheated in money games but is publicly denying that he does because his concerned about possible legal ramifications (or physical harm) resulting from his admitting on a public forum that he cheats.

Hopefully, in the future he will research the forums he joins to learn more about the membership and the quality of the information available before posting his own message. However, sad to say they may not be the case, since jmstrings reverted to name-calling only a few messages later:
Quote:
I believe we have a bunch of elitists here.

No, there are no elitists at work in this thread. There is little doubt that big egos do come with the territory, but the most vocal here have the chops to back their criticism and advice, and only get their backs up when their intelligence is questioned.

Remember, jmstrings, it was your “elitist” attitude beginning this thread that set the tenor for the critical responses that followed; don’t blast the others for responding to your messages as they have – you asked for it by posting your message without learning more about the forum in which you decided to post it.
Quote:
BY acesover: If you can do it post a vid and lets see you do it. I am not saying it is great or even magic. It is a cheat move in cards. I also mentioned that it would fly under certain conditions and I know it could under the right conditions. Look back and read where I mentioned the conditions. Is it great magic, is it great card moves? NO to both. It is a a cheat move in cards. End of stroy. It is not a performance.

Firstly, acesover, and with all due respect to an elite user with 45 years of gambling experience, speaking for one of those who posted earlier responses in this thread, whether or not one of us can perform the moves demonstrated by jmstrings is wholly irrelevant to this topic: he posted a message with the sole intention of boastingly teaching moves that he thought were the real stuff and virtually unknown to folks who he believed were magicians who would laud his performance and thank him for his warning. He was sadly mistaken.

Anyone who has taken the time to read any of my posts in this gambling forum would realize that I am not a cardman; do not pretend or profess to be one; and rarely, if ever, critique the videos posted by our members.

Nevertheless, my inability to riffle stack sets does not prevent me from identifying moves that will not fly in the real world, be it in a casino; private game; volunteer fire department Texas Hold ‘Em fund-raising tournament; or Friday night games in the back room of the St. Mary’s Knights of Columbus Council.

Secondly, acesover, I cannot for the life of me think of a single condition (except perhaps playing at the Perkins School) under which face-up shuffling of any kind, or one of those time-consuming and attention-grabbing streams of machinations would fly in games money is on the line.
Quote:
In every game we are always fiddling before sitting down in our assigned seats (usually draw cards for our seat. The cards are on the table and usually someone is counting them or shuffling them. Having said that it woudl be very possible to do what he did and not draw attention to yourself because in the end he does shuffle them face down. If done in an offhand way the first part of the cards being face up would not be noticed because it would just be fiddling with the cards.

Do you actually play for money under those conditions, acesover? (And the games in Atlantic City most certainly do not allow such shenanigans.) If so, I will apologetically stand corrected, although totally shocked that anyone would risk his hard-earned cash in games where anything goes (although there are a number of members of this forum who would undoubtedly like to be invited to those games). Given the glut of poker protection DVDs and books available today (ranging in quality from mediocre to superb), I find it unfathomable that anyone would tolerate such conditions.
Quote:
By acesover: I honestly do not know what you guys are having a problem with. What exactly are you debating with me? Is there anything I said that is not true? I never said it was great or the guy is a fantastic knuckle buster with cards. I simply statetd tht it is a possible cheat opportunity.

While I can only speak for myself, acesover, my sole reason for countering your assertions is your defense of a person who posted moves in an authoritative tone and manner that were indefensible, and your insistence, contrary to expert opinion, that those moves can fly in the real world. Your lecturing that we don’t seem to understand that some lousy moves get the money is offensive, considering that all of the members are well aware that some ham-fisted moves get the pots when executed with sheer balls; great timing; and a good turn. That being said, the face-up shuffling; incessant peeling-off of single cards; and never-ending shuffles that jmstrings demonstrated have no place at a poker table because they are unnatural and would draw the heat that his initial post warned that they would not. Lastly, the demonstration would not likely impress a group of magicians or even their lay audiences for that matter, since the average person has been made aware of crooked dealing techniques on dozens of cable television exposes viewable every day and such machinations would be suspect.

Sorry, but we will apparently have to agree that we disagree on this topic.

Bret
"If all a man can count on is finally pushing up the grass, when I do I'll lay you odds that grass is mine!" - Theme Song For The T.V. Series BRET MAVERICK, by Ed Bruce
No. 92
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Bret, I can't take credit for those words as I did not write them. My posts are not as constructive as the ones you quoted, they are more of the yelling at a wall kind of posts. Many thanks for using your superior vernacular ability to say what most of us are thinking. Although at this point I'm not so sure anyone should bother helping this guy. I say let him sleep.
stoneunhinged
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On the first page of this thread, I immediately thought of Dioxippus. So I checked out the OPs Youtube channel.

The guy can play the guitar. Dio can't, I don't think. So the guy isn't Dio, I don't think.

Of course, the guitar playing is...ah...uh...interesting.

More I will not say. But ya'll should check it out.
Bret Maverick
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Sorry, 92 but, even more importantly, I apologize to Splice, whose questions I misquoted.

Don't get old fellas...

Bret
"If all a man can count on is finally pushing up the grass, when I do I'll lay you odds that grass is mine!" - Theme Song For The T.V. Series BRET MAVERICK, by Ed Bruce
MickeyPainless
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Quote:
On 2009-09-28 14:19, No. 92 wrote:
Bret, I can't take credit for those words as I did not write them. My posts are not as constructive as the ones you quoted, they are more of the yelling at a wall kind of posts. Many thanks for using your superior vernacular ability to say what most of us are thinking.


Ditto!

92, I love the "Yelling at the wall" bit!

I think it was Silverking that suggested all new comers go back and read the previous posts in this section to get somewhat of an introduction to some of the contributors around here. I couldn't agree more!
Maitre D
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Bret, very well written.

Quote:
On 2009-09-28 08:51, acesover wrote:
I defy you to beat a cut in a card game where you hand the man on you right the deck of cards and he cuts themand completes the cut then you pick them of the table and begin to deal. In fact most of the individuals that cut in the games I play actually square the cards themselves before giving them back to the dealer...go ahead beat it and please put out a DVD because I will be the first in line to purchase it. And please don't tell me aboaut cutting to a crimp as some players acatually triple cut before giving the deck back. It just shows hot little you know and how much you THINK you know.


Your accomplice, sitting to your right, gives the deck a false cut or cuts to a brief. Proceed to deal and give him the winning hand, not yourself. Cheats usually don't work alone. This is pretty well known information. By the way, most players don't complete the cut.

Quote:
On 2009-09-28 10:23, acesover wrote:
in a card game even if you use a crimp you had better start dealing when handed the cards back and not play with them which is necessary in order to utliize the crimp.


As Splice already mentioned, a crimp would be used to beat the procedure as the person would unsuspectingly cut to it, not as a form of locating where the stack lies within the deck, as you're implying.

I think this is the 3rd or 4th time you've been corrected on some very basic gambling and cheating fundamentals. For being a self-proclaimed 45-year gambling veteran, you sure don't know much.
No. 92
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Hey guy,

I'd like to get a clear answer. Acesover, sir, what is a crimp? What exactly were you suggesting it be used for?
MickeyPainless
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A crimp is like a small cramp right?
acesover
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Maitre D. I will excuse your ignorance because of 9 posts. Now go wait on a table. If you never utilized a crimp that way that is your business.

For the upteenth time no one I play with shuffles the cards face up. But many people I play with shuffle the cards face up when just taking the cards out of the box and shuffling them. It may not be there deal they are just shuffling or counting the cards. You do count the cards face up don't you?

To whom ever posted about shuffling in A.C. this is for you: There is no game in Atlantic City that I play in that anyone at the table deals or even cuts. The casino has a dealer and if you were any kind of player you would know this.

Now plese tell me where in my posts that I said that the person dealing the cards would shuffle the cards face up before dealing. The only thing I said is that it is done my many before the game starts or at chip up and could be set up and if that person happens to be the next dealer. I also said that his deal would not hold as there are usually 8 to 10 at the table when we begin. However in a short table after eliminating people in a tournament format and chipping up one could "possibly" do it(cheat oportunity). If you read "my posts" which it seems none of you did, and did not let people put words in your mouth you would underestand where I am coming from. In fact I never said it was a good performance...it was not a performance it was a cheat move...get the magic trick syndrome out of your head..we are talking about cheating at cards.

Now some one brings up giving the deck to your partner in cheting at your right for the cut...when the heck did that come up. Lets see now bring in the girl that spills the drinks and you do a deck switch during the power surge and the lights flicker and etc etc.

While you commenting at games in various elements such as the Knights of Columbus etc in St Mary's etc shows how little you know about gambling. In our area Northest Pa. Scranton, Wilkes Barre area we have some rather big games after Lions meetings and church functions that would rival many of the games that you probably consider big. I guess this sounds like I am blowing my horn but honestly when I read some of your posts here it just brings out the worst in me.

This time I a done posting on this thread. Beat me up, stomp on me but all Iask is that before you do please show me where I said this person was a good performer. No more rebuttlas from me on this thread. If you cannot do this why the heck are you beatinig me up? I never said this guy was good or bad. Just that his set up could possibly set up a cheat opportunity. I never said it would fly as a legit deal...READ WHAT I POSTED. that's my story and I am sticking to it. Now add whatever you want and have fun. No rebuttals from me.

By the way if any of you gentlemen wish to play in any of our games I will definitely vouch for you and get you in. Send me a PM. They are on Tues Wed and Thrusday. Last Sat of every month we have a $200 buy in Texas Holdem tournament that usually attracts 30 to 40 players depends on the time of year. The split goes 50%, 25% 15% 10%. Additional $20 for food and beverages.

Now I am "all in".
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Maitre D
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Acesover, I don't know why you would do this to yourself. The more you post, the more you're getting ripped to shreds.

Quote:
On 2009-09-28 20:19, acesover wrote:
Maitre D. I will excuse your ignorance because of 9 posts.


It's foolish to rate a user's knowledge based on their number of posts.

Quote:
On 2009-09-28 20:19, acesover wrote:
If you never utilized a crimp that way that is your business.


You have made it very clear to us that you do not understand how to properly utilize a crimp in a game. Quite frankly it's becoming embarrassing for us to talk to someone so naive.

Quote:
On 2009-09-28 20:19, acesover wrote:
There is no game in Atlantic City that I play in that anyone at the table deals or even cuts. The casino has a dealer and if you were any kind of player you would know this.


You're disregarding all the private games in AC.

Quote:
On 2009-09-28 20:19, acesover wrote:
Now some one brings up giving the deck to your partner in cheting at your right for the cut...when the heck did that come up. Lets see now bring in the girl that spills the drinks and you do a deck switch during the power surge and the lights flicker and etc etc.


You think shuffling face-up will fly, but a simple cutting to a brief or crimp needs a strong turn with flickering lights?

I find it absolutely incredible that you're unable to comprehend such simple things.

Please, do yourself a favor and stop trying to rebuttal everyone.
kcg5
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Good, so we all agree?
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
C-Taylor
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I always like to think,"would I do this if someone had a gun on the table?"
"theres a lot of good card magic in that book, unfortunately you have to have skill to do most of it." Smile
splice
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Quote:
On 2009-09-28 20:42, Maitre D wrote:
It's foolish to rate a user's knowledge based on their number of posts.



Acesover's obsession with telling everyone how little they know of gambling seems to reveal some insecurity about his own knowledge. A lot of projection going on there, seems to me.

At any rate he won't reply anymore so that's fine. Letting this die is probably best at this point.
stoneunhinged
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Letting it die?

I thought it was just beginning to get interesting.

I've been working on face-up shuffling for the last couple of days, BTW. I'm gonna spring it on my poker buddies on Wednesday.
AMcD
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I'm with Stone Smile.

To be strictly fair, I've seen people shuffling cards face up in the past. According to them it was kinda proof for onlookers that cards were well mixed. Just to keep going being fair, it should have occurred 2 or 3 times and I play cards for such a long time...

Wasn't really very serious game though.

However, one stuff we meet once in a while is people showing the bottom card after a shuffle. For instance guys doing a cascade after a riffle. Not the "in the air" cascade but the one with the cards held perpendicularly above the mat.
Bret Maverick
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By acesover: While you commenting at games in various elements such as the Knights of Columbus etc in St Mary's etc shows how little you know about gambling. In our area Northest Pa. Scranton, Wilkes Barre area we have some rather big games after Lions meetings and church functions that would rival many of the games that you probably consider big. I guess this sounds like I am blowing my horn but honestly when I read some of your posts here it just brings out the worst in me.
Good Lord, you are dense. Having regulated gambling for thirty-one years I have a pretty good idea of the money wagered in my state (albeit unlawfully) at “charity” poker tournaments and, based on information relayed by personal sources, many private games. Do you really believe that the stakes in games in your Lion’s Clubs and churches in Northeast Pennsylvania would rival what I “consider big” in the private poker rooms in the City of New York?

Get real.

Don’t take this the wrong way, acesover; I am not belittling the stakes at your games (which, as a non-gambler, are higher than I would risk with my own hard-earned cash). I am merely rebutting your claim that my mentioning the less formally structured and unregulated games held at charitable halls “shows how little you know about gambling” - an accusation that I believe anyone who is familiar with the few messages that I’ve posted on this forum would refute.

The truth is, poker games with stakes in the monetary ranges that you mention occur throughout our nation, in both urban and rural areas, and were commonly conducted both before and after the pinnacle of the “poker frenzy” that we experienced a few years ago. The amount wagered in your area is not unique and, more than likely, is consistent with the monies wagered in most states. Poker has a long and very storied past in certain states, like Connecticut for instance, where the game has been traditionally accepted for more than a century in homes throughout the Nutmeg State.

Lastly, the fact that you’ve been gambling for forty-five years; owned a couple of pool halls; and have played poker extensively in both private games and tournament play does not automatically qualify you as an expert on either the methods of cheating, or in determining which moves would fly under fire. Nor does it entitle you to call everyone who disagrees with you a “stupid person” as you called No. 92 above.

Sadly, “Wisdom comes of age, but age often comes alone.”

Bret
"If all a man can count on is finally pushing up the grass, when I do I'll lay you odds that grass is mine!" - Theme Song For The T.V. Series BRET MAVERICK, by Ed Bruce
No. 92
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Burn!
artwo
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Why are people arguing about stakes?

I'm a student. £50 means more to me than £5000 means to some people.



Stakes are all relative to what you are willing to risk.



Lets all stop belittling each other and go back to our awesome riffle passes.
Bret Maverick
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Sorry, Arthur, but if you think that we are arguing about stakes you need to spend a few more years in school.

Bret
"If all a man can count on is finally pushing up the grass, when I do I'll lay you odds that grass is mine!" - Theme Song For The T.V. Series BRET MAVERICK, by Ed Bruce
silverking
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Quote:




Lets all stop belittling each other...........

"Belittling" is the wrong choice of descriptive language.......it was rather being honest with somebody who desperately needed to hear the truth.

The greatest disservice possible (and sure enough that disservice was executed in this thread) would be to say to the original poster or his thread sycophants "your video was great, keep up the good work.

It wasn't great, and it was important for that fact to be noted.
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