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The Raven
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Hi all, I have a quick question and that is that I am having problems with the pass, and is there a good reason for doing passes at the table.
RAVEN


THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE
Ben Harris
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A good cover for the pass when standing at a table in close-up mode is the "turnover." In other words, a Turnover Pass. The larger action of turning the deck over covers the smaller hidden "pass" action.

Of course, the Turnover Pass should only be used in context. You MUST need to turn the deck over for a logical reason.

Cheers

Ben Harris
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Jeb Sherrill
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Agreed. The turnover is one of, if not the most deceptive and hidden pass. It's my favourite, but like Ben says, you must have a good reason to turn the deck over.

Sable
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kellser121
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I have been having a few problems with the pass as well and have never come across this "turnover pass" any ideas where I may find it?
Thanx
Munskin
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The turnover pass, and many more besides, is described in 'Expert Card Technique'. Although, Roberto Giobbi's 'Card College' series is an equally excellent source of passes.
phonic69
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No, I'll go out on a limb and say that the pass is the most over-rated piece of manipulation around. Why? Well firstly, all my effects could use a pass but I don't need one - why make an effect more complicated than it has to be? You close-up magicians are often more obsessed with the latest "new move" rather than the entertainment for your audience. I made the same mistake, but I can honestly say that making my tricks simpler has enhanced, not detracted from them. What are your views?

Saxon
allanr
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I believe you choose the control that best fits the overall effect. Most often I simply have a spectator peek, double undercut to the break, jog shuffle or riffle shuffle to keep the card on top or bottom, I also like Marlo's convincing control. In some effects this kind of cutting or shuffling may distract from the effect and dilute some degree of directness. If I were doing a card to pocket/wallet or something where I need to palm out the selection I would prefer to pass or side-steal and produce the wallet immedietly. I believe in this context this looks much cleaner.

I certainly can't claim my pass is invisible and when I do use it (50% of the time) I try to use some kind of misdirection. For example.

1. Spread the cards between your hands for the return of the card, break the cards somwhere and offer the left half for the return of the card, close the right side of the spread - getting a break as you square, move the hands back slightly towward the body as you close the spread. I execute the pass as my hands are moving back toward me (large motion covering smaller motion). I rarely hesitate, or wait for a moment. I execute the pass as soon as the card is returned. I also, if standing, may turn my body slightly to the left. These are all small subtle movements.

2. At the same time I make some comment such as 'You didn't pick a Joker did you?' or at least something in the context of the effect that can direct them to look at you.

I wouldn't agree that the pass is the 'most-overated piece of manipulation'. I use both riffle pass, classic pass and turnover pass to good effect. However, I think phonic69 makes a good point that Magicians sometimes are obsessed with the latest move, which from the spectator's point of view looks the same - since they are not supposed to see anything!

However, learning new moves is fun. There is a balance in all of these things and a small finesse or enhancement can often improve the economy of movement in a move and make the overall move more efficiant and better. Besides, for me I simply like to learn and practice new moves of which very few will make it into my public routines.

Just my two cents.
pyromagician
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A great video that teaches the pass in detail is ninja. You can get it at http://www.ellusionist.com Smile
P.S. this is what part of the alphabet would look like if "Q" and "R" were eleminated
Ray Eldard
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Saxon,

I don't know if the pass is the most over-rated, but it's definitely one of the most misused. For me, the pass must be invisible if it is to be effective, and since I can count on one hand the number of times I haven’t seen a pass while it was being executed, I never use it. My feeling is if the move is perceptible to the eye, why make it as difficult as the pass?

After reading Michael Ammar’s thoughts on the Pass I ceased trying to master it and have been double-undercutting ever since.
r4bid
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The cover pass is a great pass, invisible if done right and is great during an ambitious card routine as it sets the chosen card second from the top.
p.b.jones
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quote:
but I can honestly say that making my tricks simpler has enhanced, not detracted from them. What are your views?

HI, if you had said here that making your EFFECTS simpler has enhanced, not detracted I might agree with you. However, you use the word tricks, which makes me think that you mean easier for you to perform?

For example:
Effect: a card is selected, returned anywhere in the deck. then turns up in impossible location

Effect 2. A card is selected, deck is cut, card placed back in a specific place (lower portion) , deck is cut several times, card turns up in impossible location.

Effect 2 is the easiest to perform
Effect 1 is the simplest effect and the most magical from an audience perspective.

Now there are other controls than the pass that can achieve effect 1., but double undercut is not one of them (as you do not say your prefered control method I cannot comment).

quote: All my effects could use a pass but I don't need one - why make an effect more complicated than it has to be?

Surely a pass is the least complicted way (to your audience) to bring a card to the top of the deck after all the card goes in the middle and you do nothing!

quote:
and since I can count on one hand the number of times I haven’t seen a pass while it was being executed.

I cannot count the number of times I haven't seen a double undercut. because I see it Every time!

If you think that lay people are in anyway fooled (do not know that you controlled the card) with a double undercut then you need to sit at a table with lay people while a magicain performs for you using the move and listen to them afterwards.

Phillip
Ray Eldard
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I respectfully disagree. The smoothness with which Michael Ammar performs the double-undercut is more convincing than 90 percent of any pass I've ever seen. The pass is great, but difficult to perform well which is why most magicians don't. I think it looks to the audience like exactly what it is -- a secret move! They might not know what you did, but they know you did it.

The undercut on the other hand is a great example of hiding in plain site. Handled correctly it is innocent and unassuming and I believe far more effective.

Don't misunderstand, a well performed Pass is as good as it gets, I just think very few ever get that good.
r4bid
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rjejr: Very few get that good because people say that they won't... The pass requires a lot of practice, I have been working on my classic and riffle passes for a little over half a year now. I am by no means invisible when I just do a classic pass but I have yet to be caught doing any number of things to hide the effect.

The riffle
Dip
cover
ear dip
watch dip

and many more are all great effects to hide a pass.

I have never been asked by a spectator why are you just squaring up the deck and putting the cards down. I have been asked many times why are you cutting the deck if the card is already lost in the center.
Ray Eldard
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Your pass may be fine and if so great, but don't assume that just because a spectator didn't say anything that they didn't see anything. Contrary to what many magicians like to believe, unless you're dealing with drunks, most audiences are respectful and polite.

Speaking only for myself, I've never had a spectator question an undercut, or any cut for that matter. Never. And to be honest I find it surprising, if not bizarre, that someone who actually has a convincing pass would have such a questionable double undercut.

Bottom line is if you have a good pass you have my respect and by all means stick with it, but as for me, well, I'll pass.
MattSedlak
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Now it is my turn to go out on a limb.
I cannot stand it when people compare a double-undercut to a pass. Using the double undercut as a control, can sometimes be justified. However, to double cut and then reveal a card is on top is foolish and by no means magical.

Now, granted most effects that require a control don't immediatly require that you reveal the card, but an interesting thing to think about is, Why are you cutting the cards? Is there justification for doing so? If not you just telegraphed that you did a move. Of course, the audience won't say anything just like they won't say anything if they see your pass.

Of course this all depends on your audience, but being from the inner city, when I would flash my pass, they would let me know. Also, hand the spectator a deck and ask him to cut the cards, it's almost a given that they won't undercut. The only time a spectator will undercut is during a tabled riffle shuffle (maybe) and an overhand shuffle. So therefore the double undercut looks unnatural.

Maybe thats one reason that Vernon said the double-undercut is for those too lazy to practice the pass. Now, I do agree that the pass is under used. For example, you can do an entire Ambitious Card routine with passes. In mine I only use one. If there is a routine that uses multiple passes, I try and either vary the pass method or use a top-card cover pass.

Also, remember that the pass is best done with eyes on the deck. The misdirection for the pass should be that they believe you are squaring the deck (Jiggle) or riffling the deck (Riffle) etc. If you get them to look away why bother even doing a pass, just cut the thing. Now I respect that some people do not feel comfortable performing a pass, but while it may not work for you, I know it works for me. Still, I do not use it a million times per routine.

As for the double-undercut I obviously do not use it as a control, and as far as a block transfer, a false deal is far simpler to do. The reason I mention this is because many people confuse simple and easy. The pass and a false deal are simple but an intermediate sleight. The double-undercut is easy but far from simple. It is cluttered and complicated to a lay audience.

As far as learning the newest moves, I don't see anything wrong with it. Just because I know a million moves does not mean that I perform them. When working out an effect, I may encounter a problem and one of those moves may be the solution.

Saxon says, "You close-up magicians are often more obsessed with the latest "new move" rather than the entertainment for your audience". First of all, the majority of close-up magicians out there are hobbyists and don't worry as much about entertaining lay people as a working professional does. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with this.

Those that actually have the ability to make a living with magic usually are entertaining and there is nothing wrong with working on new moves to make their magic not only more entertaining, but also more magical. Making magic magical seems to be a forgotten idea in today's magic community.
DaveVegas
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Any form of pass is 'invisible' if the audience isn't looking at your hands! I do a pretty good turnover pass and cover pass, but always make sure the move is done at the same time as a bigger move - basic misdirection really. It's important that the moves we do are pretty well out of sight, but more important than that is getting them looking where we want them to.
:)
r4bid
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rjejr: I guess you misunderstood my point... I believe Matt summed it up pretty well.

"Using the double undercut as a control, can sometimes be justified. However, to double cut and then reveal a card is on top is foolish and by no means magical. "

And trust me the audiences that I perform for are not polite or even remotely decent as spectators, they burn my hands looking for anything that they can use to disprove me.


but lets not make a feud of this, I would hate to take the thread off topic.
Ray Eldard
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It appears that I did misunderstand your point because I also agree with Matt. I only use it as a control and have never double cut a card and then revealed it as the top card.

It doesn't change my opinion on the overall use and execution of the pass, but I appreciate your POV and agree that this is enough said on the topic, at least by me anyway.
Stephen Long
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I think the pass is a fantastic move WHEN USED IN CONTEXT.
If you just need to control a card, why not simply double undercut?
However, the pass can be used to GREAT effect in ambitious card.

It often depends what kind of a mood I'm in.
Many passes can be a bit angly.
If I'm performing for two or three, I'll usually pass, if only for my own enjoyment.

But whatever works for you is fine with me.

Gonz
:carrot: Smile
Hello.
Ben Harris
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Wow, we've certainly got some good, solid, and thoughtful discussion going down.

Here are some thoughts:

THE PASS IS A TOOL:

The pass, no matter what version, is just a tool. Sometimes it is the BEST tool, sometimes it is not. Experience tells you the right moment, the right application.

In certain effects, any visible mixing of the cards (including a Double Under Cut) only detracts from the effects intent.

People who insist the pass is the "only" way are as blinkered as those who deny it's power.

HIDING THE PASS:

The best cover is always going to be a logical one. Anything else and you are drawing undue attention. Speed is ONLY good if it is not noticed.

Cheers

Ben Harris
(occasional pass user, if it's the best way)
+ "Top 10" Best-Selling author at Lybrary.com
+ Proud sponsor "Genii Magazine's 75th Anniversary Convention"
+ Inventor of the world famous Floating Match
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