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euro76
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On 2009-10-27 22:11, Maitre D wrote:

I think what you might be trying to say is more along the lines of "how can I locate and cull any card in the deck?" Or, "what is the limit to how many cards can be culled in a shuffle?"



yes yes yes!
you r right but I need to locate, cull, and stack as one move and as many cards as possible.

I want STONE COLD STACKING
I want to make cold deck with stacking.

that is what I asked for

thank you Maitre D
Maitre D
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Cool, I'm glad we cleared that up.

I'm no expert on this topic so hopefully somebody else will chime in.

I do know of some resources that you will want to look at. Check out Ed Marlo's Riffle Shuffle trilogy. Karl Fulves also has some material on riffle shuffles but I don't know the specific names of them. From here you'll learn all kinds of block-transfers that will help you with cold stacking. Be forewarned, these books are hard to find and have a hefty price-tag to weed out the curious hobbyists.

One technique that comes to my mind is to store the desired cards on the bottom of the deck between shuffles. Of course this will only work if you're the designated dealer for that game, but with it you'll be able to progressively gather all the cards you need in one spot for when you're ready. From there, it's a matter of having a great bottom deal, or stacking them to the positions you want them in.

Hope that helps.
Mnemonimage
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As a recent inductee into Riffle-Stacking madness, I can tell you it's a long road. I've got the material from Marlo, as well as Richard Turner's "Science of Shuffling and Stacking", but as dense as both of these resources are, they only scratch the surface. If you're up for some digging, the Fulves books are "Riffle Shuffle Methods" and "Riffle Shuffle Technique", both of which I haven't been able to find for any price. Andrew Wimhurst has "Down Under Deals", which will hopefully be reprinted soon, as it's nearly as difficult to find as the Fulves stuff.

I've heard from a few places that the Dad Steven's Cull is fantastic, but haven't been able to get nearly anything on it (other than a few moves and/or references). Some of Darwin Ortiz' books go into it a bit, and I've heard that By Forces Unseen has some material as well.

All that being said, previous posters are right in that culling/controlling/stacking all 52 cards is difficult for the card cheat. Now, in a magic presentation, it isn't that hard at all. Juan Tamariz has Mnemonica, a full deck stack, which he provides nearly a dozen methods for bringing about from all different deck orders (including fully shuffled) in front of audiences. It's really just a matter of motivation. That, of course, is another thread altogether.

Anyway, good luck, and let me know if you find the magic answer. I want to control all 52 cards all the time!
No. 92
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Quote:
On 2009-10-27 18:57, splice wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-10-27 18:42, euro76 wrote:
John Scarne also said "A cheater who has perfected riffle stacking is by all means the most dangerous of adversaries".


And Erdnase said "The possibilities of the riffle, for all practical purposes at the card table, are limited to retaining the top or bottom stock".



yeah but erdnase was a hack, he obviously fudged that idea up.

Besides, what are you getting at?
The Dowser
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Quote:
On 2009-10-28 01:01, euro76 wrote:


yes yes yes!

I want STONE COLD STACKING
I want to make cold deck with stacking.

that is what I asked for



I know exactly what you are after... and you are not going to get it by asking.

What you want IS possible and not only that, it is being done! I believe that statement is all the information you need. The rest is up to you. Even if I was willing to tell you exactly how (Frankly I would rather chew glass), it wouldn't serve you well. The level of ability you want can only be achieved, not taught.

Pursue it.
Go and get it.
Mnemonimage said it correctly: it is a very long road. I want to say that all the info is already out there but this is not true. You will need to study the shuffle, the math, and the techniques to gain a comprehensive understanding and then add your own ingenuity.

Advice is fine to seek but your ambition is beyond that.

I will say that your goal should be to gain understanding and not to bog your self down with endless practice of trivial techniques that keep you distracted.

When your knowledge is at a level that leads to the creation of practical and original methods then you will know what techniques to spend time practicing.

Whoa... my soap box just broke.
I really apologize for the arrogant tone of this post but it is truly a sincere attempt at guidance.
Dowser

p.s. you may wish to look into the tabled faro... and don't let anyone tell you it is not practical for the "real work". That is a statement made by those who base there findings on imagination... or more likely a lack there of. Also a study of the faro leads to a greater understanding of all riffle shuffling.

I've said too much.

Good luck
tommy
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What you have said makes no sense so I wouldn't worry about it. Smile

You can do faro shuffles to control 52 cards but that is useless if you don’t know what order the 52 are in before you start doing them.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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A faro shuffle is not useless even if knowledge of 52 cards is not present. It has greater implications than just a perfect weave of 52 cards, done eight times (or 52 times) to restore a deck.

Most expert analysis that has been done on riffle shuffling, shuffle tracking, or the mathematics of shuffling as it relates to card games begins with a study of the perfect shuffle. Imperfect shuffles are really just deviations from a perfect model.

Tommy, from your posts I would assume that poker is your game. There are many opportunities in poker to see and know the position of many cards. These opportunities repeat over successive rounds and, in the right hands, can have a compound effect.

Of course, if that makes no sense, by all means, stay in the dark. I'm good with that.
blackeagle
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Quote:

cannot say it is "control" for false cuts&shuffles.
I want the 52 card in order by control.
let say there is 5 throw poker and 3 time changes cards for each player, in this case, even if there are 4 players, most of 52 cards will be used.
I want to control that.

If I read this correctly. No, If I interpreted this correctly you are asking to be able to stack a deck so that once you deal and the round is complete and you hand over the cards, the next "3 time changes" or the next three players will deal from a stack deck? Well unfortunately, I believe the deck is reshuffled then cut again. But I did hear of a few people who could control the way other people shuffled in order to stack themselves a winning hand. I think their names were Professor X and um.. luke... luke sky... no wait ... oh yea Luke Skywalker.
tommy
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Quote:
On 2009-10-27 22:11, Maitre D wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-10-27 18:42, euro76 wrote:
I was questioned myself that how can I control as many cards as possible? instead of cold deck.
I might be able to control 10 to 20 cards by shuffles but it takes many shuffles as controling many cards.


I think the problem here is you weren't able to clearly express what you were asking, but the above statement popped out to me as it might be what you were trying to convey this whole time.

Let's clarify one thing, you initially asked how to "control all 52 cards." That statement nearly always refers to using a full-deck false shuffle to preserve the order they were already in. This is why people kept referring you to use a Zarrow shuffle and other false shuffles.

I think what you might be trying to say is more along the lines of "how can I locate and cull any card in the deck?" Or, "what is the limit to how many cards can be culled in a shuffle?"

Am I right? If so, your question makes for an interesting discussion.


Quote:
On 2009-10-28 01:01, euro76 wrote:
Quote:
On 2009-10-27 22:11, Maitre D wrote:

I think what you might be trying to say is more along the lines of "how can I locate and cull any card in the deck?" Or, "what is the limit to how many cards can be culled in a shuffle?"




yes yes yes!
you r right but I need to locate, cull, and stack as one move and as many cards as possible.

I want STONE COLD STACKING
I want to make cold deck with stacking.

that is what I asked for

thank you Maitre D



You can cull from a shuffled deck four of a kind using a Dad Stevens and stack them.

I am in the dark as to how many cards can be culled from a shuffled deck doing what Dowser said.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
euro76
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OK OK
Let's change the topic
Is there anyone who can show me COLD Triple Duke stacking which means that the cards should not be set up.
It suppose to happen within RRSRC and no risky bottom dealing or marked deck or face up shuffle.

Thank you:)
blackeagle
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Why would I tell you how to do this. Its pointless to me. Its not like your offering anything for information. Pick up a book and find out for yourself.
Maitre D
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I doubt it, because it's extremely impractical and esoteric to say the least.

Probably the closest thing you'll get to cold stacking 3 hands within an RRSRC procedure would be to simply peek the cards during the shuffle and let them be dealt out to the players as they are. You'll know all the player's hole-cards which is plenty enough of an advantage.
The Dowser
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I didn't realize that time changes meant passing the deal.
As for a triple duke (and even up to eight and nine dukes in a ten handed game) in hold'em, just from shuffling cards that you may have gathered while squaring the muck... I have already given the answer... but you experts don't seem to want to hear it. You don't have to be a fictional character with a light saber because this is not fiction and it all makes perfect sense. You just have to think a little.
If you demand on a certain procedure like "RRSRC" (which is RSRRC in the three casino's I've been employed in) that is probably because you are trying to mimic casino procedures. If so, the deal does not pass around the table and the dealer is not actually in the game.
You should read Steve Forte's poker protection book, or his larger book on casino games protection.
The Dowser
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There was a time when card counting seemed "extremely impractical and esoteric" until someone published a book... and even then people didn't listen until the casino banks started to take a hit. Everything seems esoteric when you don't know how.
euro76
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Quote:
On 2009-10-29 23:51, blackeagle wrote:
Why would I tell you how to do this. Its pointless to me. Its not like your offering anything for information. Pick up a book and find out for yourself.


U don't need to tell ME how to.
Show me!
I just need a proof that someone can do this.
I tried several times to do that for last 3 months, but, for me, it seems to impossible.
I ****ed off myself because I cannot do this.
I will keep practice if someone can do this.
I just need a spark to keep practice.

still, if your answer is "YES, it is possible". just show me that or link me, you scramble your cards and stack'em for triple duke.
With set up or Magician way, in here, I believe that there are plenty of people who can do that

your sounds are like you can do this, can u?
don't tell me there are other ways to cheat. believe me, I know the other ways.

if I want a instructive information, I am willing to pay.

I am not seeking the solution, I am seeking possibility or a proof or resources.

I need a book to doing this? what is the title of the book? you want me to pay something to you for telling me a tile of a book?
tommy
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“Culls The desired cards: To cull is the act of selecting one or more desired cards, and may consist simply in making the selection as discreetly as possible while gathering up the cards for the deal, or it may be the operation of a much more obscure and apparently impossible feat--that of gathering the desired cards rapidly and easily, from various positions in the deck, to the bottom, during the process of a shuffle that appears perfectly natural and regular.”

-Erdnase-

It is apparent that it is the later of these two things that our friend is seeking to do. He has repeatedly said he wants to do it from stone cold.

You are not answering his question but answering your own question. You say “in hold'em, just from shuffling cards that you may have gathered while squaring the muck..” Which is correct but that is not an answer to his question is it? The direct and proper answer to his question is, no you can not do that, because you would have to cull too many cards. However what you can do is cull the desired cards on the pick up. IMHO. What you are saying is practical but the correct answer to his question is, no that is not practical.

That is why I said what you said in your answer to his question mahes no sense.

I don't know if that makes sense to you? Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
euro76
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Quote:
On 2009-10-30 00:06, The Dowser wrote:

If you demand on a certain procedure like "RRSRC" (which is RSRRC in the three casino's I've been employed in) that is probably because you are trying to mimic casino procedures. If so, the deal does not pass around the table and the dealer is not actually in the game.



what I meant for RRSRC was that the shuffle must be made as real game situation.
If I can shuffle all night long, I think I can do that.
tommy
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Yes that is right, you would have to shuffle all night to cull so many from stone cold.

So instead do what Dowser said and do the culling on the pick up.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The Dowser
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I gave you two titles already. I'm not referring to "other ways to cheat" but you still have to put two and two together on your own. I have done that, and so far it seems like few others have. It took a long time and I am too young to give it all away.

You are right about one thing... you need to believe it is possible. That is why you can't find any examples of this kind of work. Most of these guys only know what they have learned from others. If you don't know it is possible you will not waste time trying to work it out. If you take the time to try to work it out, you will see that it really is not rocket science. I'm not going to simply hand it to you... and I know that there are some smart readers here who will realize what I am talking about and work it out for themselves. I'm sure if you wait long enough one of them will release it as the latest greatest thing in gambling moves and shuffle work.
Why do you need a book anyway? What makes the person who wrote the book any smarter than you? The same info that is available to me is available to you. Work it out for yourself. This field has enough "experts" that only know what they have been shown. I've yet to see anyone do what I can do.. and I know there are (a very few) others here who can say the same about their own work... and nobody handed me anything so guess what...
The Dowser
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Quote:
On 2009-10-30 01:22, euro76 wrote:
[
if I want a instructive information, I am willing to pay.

I am not seeking the solution, I am seeking possibility or a proof or resources.

I need a book to doing this? what is the title of the book? you want me to pay something to you for telling me a tile of a book?

I don't want your money, If I did I would play in your game. You would learn as much then as you are learning now.
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