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Joe Mauro Inner circle 1133 Posts |
Watch Mr. Kenner's new $800 gaff coin trick
http://www.coingaffs.com/SuperFly.html and then watch this $12 trick from Mr.Boykin: http://www.vinnymarini.com/download/myfly.html From a layman's perspective, does it matter? Perhaps a professional coin worker can critique and discern a difference, but can a layman? When a gaff can do a trick that cannot be accomplished by sleight of hand and an extra coin, then I'm all for them. In this case, why bother with an expensive gaff. Thoughts? ~Joe
~Joe
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Honestly? Kenner's version has clarity, efficiency, and is a more pure demonstration of the core effect. And I honestly don't think that I'm "thinking like a magician" in saying so.
If Marion's effect gets good responses for him, though, then good for him.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Joe Mauro Inner circle 1133 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-28 04:03, Andrew Musgrave wrote: Do lay people look for clarity, efficiency, and pure demonstration of the core effect when watching a coin trick? That sounds what a magician watching a demo looks for. I'm suggesting that laypeople, looking at the two effects, would not discern a difference and the above routines would garner similar reactions. This is not saying lay people are not observant, aware and smart. They are all of that.
~Joe
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rannie Inner circle 4375 Posts |
I second that Joe!
Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."
-Rannie Raymundo- aka The Boss aka The Manila Enforcer www.rannieraymundo.com www.tapm.proboards80.net |
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RamonT Regular user 200 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-28 06:06, Joe Mauro wrote: I could not agree more with this post, it's just right on the nail. Ramon. |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
Effect
Effect Effect Effect Effect Effect and of course the old... KISS principle comes to mind for this nearly normal coin guy. Harris still 2 old to know everything....
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
I agree with Andrew- the clarity stands out...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Joe Mauro Inner circle 1133 Posts |
Their patter is different of course. Watch them both with the sound turned off. It's very interesting.
~Joe
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Eric Jones V.I.P. Director of Product Development 2101 Posts |
One of my favorite stage manipulators is David Sousa. His magic is slow and deliberate. His effects pure and uncluttered. The magic is clear. Mr. Sousa has thought long and hard about the effect he wants to achieve in the minds of his audiences, and has created what he feels to be the best way to acheive that end. And his magic is better for it.
To bring this back to coin magic, while expensive, Kenner has also thought long and hard about the effect he wants his audience to see and has developed a sophisticated gaff that unclutters the effect, making what the LAYMEN see clear, magical and visually impossible. It leaves them with no way to reconstruct how the effect happened. With MOST sleight of hand versions of the plot, the handling telegraphs the method, and the magic suffers for it. We have a plethora of tools we can use to decieve our audiences. Why limit ourselves with the purists mantra -no gaffs? I don't own a set of these coins, only because I haven't found a routine I can use them in, aside from the 3fly Kenner demos. However, I don't think we should settle for the lesser product just because it's cheaper. As a consumer, you always have the option of buying 1-ply toilet paper, but why would you want soiled fingers?
“We're two tigers away from an act in Vegas.” Greg House M.D.
<BR> <BR>http://www.ericjonesmagic.com |
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magiclee71 Loyal user 215 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-28 03:25, Joe Mauro wrote: Isn't it a 2 way street though? Doesn't or shouldn't the performer get the same satisfaction and enjoyment if not more than the spectator. Maybe for some performers having a nifty gaff helps accomplish that feeling of satisfaction when performing. I see 2 angles here. There are some that get a kick out of creating magic without gimmicks and then there are those that get a kick out of creating magic with gimmicks. In my opinion we should look at the complete package. To truly create magic the spectator AND the performer should feel it. |
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lithyem Veteran user San Diego, CA 306 Posts |
3Fly the effect is 3 coins traveling from 1 hand to the other "invisibly" - Marion's does not do that. 2 coins go from left to right then he places the 3rd on the right hand then one flies back to the left, and another, then places the 3rd back to the left - then one flies across again and back. Kenner's goes 1-2-3 from left to right. From a laymen's perspective the difference is in clarity - one effect shows coins going seemingly at random from hand to hand and the other shows 3 coins invisibly traveling from one hand to the other in order.
Leavig the mechanics of the effects aside since it really and truly is irrelevant - I think Vernon would remind us that clarity of effect is paramount. 3Fly is a clear effect (although muddied by many performers) while MB's is not incredibly clear - albeit entertaining I'm sure. To be fair here I do the exact same routine/effect with 4 coins or SuperFly. My handling of SuperFly (while different from Kenner's) shows open hands, open palms, nothing to hide and my version of 3Fly wish 4 coins has identical displays except for 1. The gaff is nice because it lets me concentrate a bit more on the presentation and openness but for all intents and purposes I tend to prefer straight coins when possible... |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
Effect!
Harris ocdish.. deutsch
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Eric Jones V.I.P. Director of Product Development 2101 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-28 06:06, Joe Mauro wrote: Yes, in a sense they do, but of course this isn't limited to coin magic. While laymen may not have a clue as to HOW you're doing your thing, they can certainly pick up on "something" taking place. The ONLY difference between you and your audience is that YOU know how the trick works. That can change by flaunting the "secret" in their face too many times. Lots of "magicians" don't give their audiences enough credit. They sense tension, they can sense when you're trying to direct their attention away from something tricky, and they can certainly understand when an effect is clear. Clear presentations and methods are what the classics are all about. Cups and balls, coins across, ambitious card, linking rings. All CLEAR plots. In three fly, I promise you they suspect a 4th coin no matter how clean the handling. The way to counter this is to cancel that method out in both presentation and technique. Kenner's handling and most gimmicked handling address this issue, while very few sleight of hand 3fly effects do. by causing one coin to fly back and forth, not only are you cluttering the effect for no reason, you are waiving the secret in their faces repeatedly, increasing the chance of your spectator figuring it out.
“We're two tigers away from an act in Vegas.” Greg House M.D.
<BR> <BR>http://www.ericjonesmagic.com |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9530 Posts |
Interesting string and never thought in my wildest dreams to be in anyway compared to Chris Kenner or at least our works.
I would say that in this "My Fly aka Grandpa's Coins" package I give 3 variations of the effect and there is a classical version where the coins go one way for the conservatives. My take goes both ways and telling from specs I just did it for last night in Denver, it works very well. So I don't know but I'm just saying... In my download I actually applaud Chris Kenner feverishly and speak to all the many ways the effect can and has been done. I'm not the first to go both ways with this, check Daryl's 3 Fly III. Now I'm no Daryl and truth be told neither are most of you but I do feel that what I did has merit and absolutely does work and amazes, which it was designed to do. My friend Eric Jones points basically as to the differences between a Mustang and Masserrati here, albeit in a curious sort of way with the toilet paper analogy. Not sure about all that but then again what are friends for. I have no problem with people that use gaffs, I prefer not to but I can use them about as well as the next guy...They are actually made so that every Magic Michael can do the effect, it certainly makes it easier, which is what it's designed to do and Kenner did that pretty well with his Super Fly. My effect is hundreds and hundreds of dollars less, I'm sorry about that. But it was aimed toward teaching people the effect at a reasonable cost and giving some interesting new ways to deliver it. I think it did that moreso than not. Finally everyone has their opinion on what magic is and should be and I respect that but in the end it is the spec that should walk away in amazement. I have fun doing all things I came up with and many things I've learned from others so I enjoy it all through and through and I pass all that along to the specs for final approval. What you guys think has some relative importance to be sure because you are practitioners but ulitimately what's important to me is the amazement the spec feels when he watches me do my thing. My goal is to perform magic and the larger, largest response overwhelmingly says that I done good. So not for nothing but I'm just saying....And thanks to all those that like the effect or found something of worth in the small package and thanks also to all those that thought otherwise, it's all good.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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lithyem Veteran user San Diego, CA 306 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-28 13:05, Mb217 wrote: I can't say that I agree there - I feel that gaffs should only be used to achieve something not possible with pure sleight of hand rather than to bring an effect into the hands of the everyone. If you can't handle coins you certainly won't be able to handle a shell or a flipper. In this case SuperFly gimmick lets you show very open positions that you otherwise could not - simple as that. It does not improve the effect - only changes the presentation. SuperFly in the hands of a hack would be a mess as would 4 coin 3Fly... |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-10-28 06:06, Joe Mauro wrote: Lay people don't look for those things in the sense that you mean them, and they probably wouldn't know what you meant if you trotted out the words, but those things deeply affect what the lay person sees to the point where they determine the quality of the performance. You suggest that laypeople, seeing both versions, would not discern a difference. I disagree, and strongly believe that given the benefit of comparison, a lay audience would immediately discern a large difference. By your suggestion, any version of ThreeFly where the method fools should be just as good as any other, since laypeople can't tell them apart anyway. We know, though, that the very idea is poppycock, and some ThreeFlys are very, very good while others are downright terrible. The reason we can grade them as such is specifically because laypeople can discern the difference. |
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Joe Mauro Inner circle 1133 Posts |
Some people are not good coin handlers, so it doesn't matter if it's gaffs or not, the work doesn't look good. Lay people know when something is entertaining or looks bad or doesn't make sense. Coins, cards, etc. Bad magic is bad magic.
The video clips we are discussing, I feel are excellent. And I also believe lay people would feel the same way and would be equally entertained by them in person. Will we ever really know? I guess unless Mr. Boykin and Mr. Kenner appear in public and perform for non-magicians, we won't. But it makes for an interesting discussion. I don't know either gentlemen, but I admire their work. Also,I'm a hobbyist and don't perform. I'm still a layman in many ways and I enjoyed both video clips,which prompted me to start this discussion.
~Joe
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts |
Well, you could take their two videos, load them up on your laptop, Airbook, iPhone, iTouch, iPod, Blackberry, smartphone or whatever is at your disposal and hit the streets. Show them around and ask people -- non-magicians -- which they like better. Don't qualify the question, just...which is better? You may expect it would come in at about 50/50. I think a clear bias would present itself.
I'm. Just. Sayin'. |
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Xcath1 Inner circle 3067 Posts |
With all respect to MB I would suggest comparing the Kenner Gaff to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfgwY5HQ5Ug. Is there a 600 dollar difference here? In all fairness most cannot achieve this degree of proficiency with what appers to be an ungaffed version. |
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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
There's no doubt that Kenner's version is very clean. I personally, would not spend 600-800 dollars for 3 Fly. I'm sure there were a lot of costs in manufacturing, etc. But for that kind of money I could buy Kenner's book, Roth's book, pretty much all of Roth's and Rubinstein's and Gallo's videos, Kaufman's book, and Bobo! Instead of one coin set designed to be used for one effect (though I'm sure it has utilitarian applications), I would have a complete library on on coin magic that would enable me to do hundreds--thousands--of effects, even if I didn't have this particular gaff with me.
Is the effect clearer than Marion's un-gaffed version? Yes, I think it is. Is it so much better as to warrant another $788 of my hard-earned money? Not even close. Finally, did Kenner get Jimmy Snooka's permission?
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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