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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Darwin Ortiz, casino experience? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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Knowledge is one thing wisdom is quite another.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Maitre D
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I get the feeling if any of us had even a trace amount of wisdom, we'd stay far away from gambling.
tommy
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True. The advantage makes it a business.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
AMcD
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Baloney? I'm afraid you read my post at light speed...

I've never written you need to be a sleight of hand artist to be an expert, far from it!

What I wanted to say is that if you have played, you know the in and outs. You can "feel" the atmosphere, understand the guy's minds. It's better to know the people you want to fight. It will add a big plus to your detection procedures !

Mandatory meant that some moves, attitudes are impossible to understand if you have never played. You can have dozens cameras and show off with ultra-hype paraphernalia, if you have never played I'd like to see how you can spot a crew playing cousins, killing cards, sharing bankrolls, etc. Cheating doesn't involve sleights!

Why are you gonna write next? Maybe that you don't need to know how to play Poker or what a playing card is Smile? I was used to read interesting stuff from you.
The Dowser
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It is just as difficult for someone who has played cousins to spot others doing it as it is for someone who understands the concept but has not played it themselves. The same goes for any of the other techniques you listed.
Any reading I do at light speed has never affected my comprehension. In some cases, I suppose experience is a "big plus" but it is far from mandatory.

You don't have to kill a lamb to be a good sheep dog.

By your statement "Mandatory meant that some moves, attitudes are impossible to understand..." tells me that you are over-weighing the power of experience. There is very little in gaming that is impossible to understand.

I simply think your idea is just plain wrong and my original response was not due to fast reading or any misunderstanding of your words.
It is possible that I am not thinking clearly on the subject, my opinion may be contaminated by two decades of experience actually protecting casino games.

"I was used to read interesting stuff from you."
Thanks for the compliment... I guess this time we disagree.
iamslow
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Quote:
On 2009-11-16 13:31, AMcD wrote:

It's better to know the people you want to fight. It will add a big plus to your detection procedures !

You can have dozens cameras and show off with ultra-hype paraphernalia, if you have never played I'd like to see how you can spot a crew playing cousins, killing cards, sharing bankrolls, etc. Cheating doesn't involve sleights!



Mabee You can turn up the volume on the cameras...... Smile
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
AMcD
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Dowser,

Don't you think that the guys you are fighting are in fact what really matters?

Let's take some examples. If you use cameras or any surveillance material, I agree that the main majority of moves are just useless. You don't need outstanding paraphernalia to limit frauds. Using your own logos on the back of the cards, your own checks, there are so many effective basic stuff!

Doing so, you are mainly detecting marked cards, sleights, cold decks, etc.

But what about collusion, team play, etc.? That's what I'm talking about when I use the word "mandatory". No camera would be of any help for detecting guys killing cards. If you have never played cards, I don't clearly see how you can spot three guys signaling each other their hole cards. Without true play experience how can you know the techniques actually used? I'm OK with the fact that you don't have to be the god of cross firing to understand the technique, but how can you know it when you have never been taught it? Crews sharing/spreading pots for instance. OK, hard to detect. But experience can help you to "feel" things.

I admit that, due to my poor english, I overweight a little the role of true experience. But don't tell me that it's not a plus. A huge plus.

Catching guys like Doc or Z involves more than cameras. But I haven't worked yet in game protection, I can be realy far from the truth. What I can tell you anyway is that often I've detected that something was strange at my tables just because my background, my experience. Weird played hands, strange chip stacks variations, etc. Not everyone has 10 cameras with him Smile. And not everyone plays in casinos only. I'm not necessarily talking about professionals of gambling protection but about gamblers too!

Gamblers should be able to detect some weird stuff too.

IMHO.
The Dowser
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" But don't tell me that it's not a plus. A huge plus. "

I said it was a plus... read my post again. It just isn't mandatory.

"...but how can you know it when you have never been taught it?"

Being taught, and having done, are two different things. You don't have to have done it to have "been taught it".

"Catching guys like Doc or Z involves more than cameras...Not everyone has 10 cameras with him"

I have never said that cameras are a replacement for experience cheating or even playing. I never mentioned cameras and do not personally use them. I still maintain that experience at cheating is not necessary. But you hold on to that romantic notion... I'm sorry if I popped your bubble.

"If you have never played cards, I don't clearly see how you can spot three guys signaling each other their hole cards."

I don't play poker but I am willing to bet that I watch more hands than you do. We see exactly the same things. If someone farts, we both will smell it. What advantage do you have seeing covert signals that I don't have? In fact you are probably only aware of the methods used by yourself and those you have worked with (I am generously and hypothetically entertaining the notion that you have cheating experience to back up your assertions).

"And not everyone plays in casinos only."

I thought that is what this thread is about: casino games protection and casino experience.
Expertmagician
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I can tell you that I grew up in New York with Darwin during my teens and 20s....He is a very dedicated and very knowledgeable card worker. He also pays a GREAT deal of attention to detail and subtleties to make moves look natural.

Even though I have not spent any time with him since he left New York about 25-30 years ago, I have seen his videos and read his literature. So, I suspect that he is as skilled and more knowledgeable than he was 30 years ago.

Darwin has also done casino consulting to educate casinos on how to detect card cheats.

As far as cheating in casinos is concerned...I too have seen back room casino surveillance systems and after talking to many of these folks, I can tell you that if you cheat in casinos the odds are VERY VERY high that you WILL get caught. SO, don't do it !

Even if you are good enough not to be detected on camera, the casino will be able to get enough evidence to prosecute you. That will cost you megabucks for lawyer fees too and personal inconvenience. Again, don't do it !

PS: Regarding Darwin being a dealer...I don't know...But, we did learn and practice sleight of hand from the best during our teens and 20s. The only thing a dealer may learn is how to follow proceedures which supposedly keep the game ligit. Of course, those same proceedures can be duplicated by the "bad guys" for "advantage play".
Long Island,

New York
tommy
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The dealers just happen to be the front line of defence when it comes to game protection in casino’s but I guess that matters not a jot. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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